Do Gays go to Heaven?

[Guardian7347]

But there is no empirical evidence to support the genetic claim, frankly speaking.

Thank you for understanding my point. You consistently prove yourself reasonable and logical. I appreciate that.

Thank you. That is the thing about Science: until something is proven (or unproven) then there is a possibility it is true -- but also there is a possibility that it is false instead.

And while I'm sure I could have worded my statement just a little more neutrally, that IS the point I was trying to make.

[Eternal Novice]

I can't imagine that anyone would go to heaven or hell based on their sexual orientation. There is no intrinsic moral quality within heterosexual or homosexual behavior that would make it right or wrong. I think the reason it’s become such an issue is that people’s views are still widely influenced by religion.

Most of the population is heterosexual, so homosexuality is widely considered to be uncommon and unnatural. For people who don’t like it, religion becomes their confirmation. They declare “Homosexuality is evil!” It’s right there in their book, so they feel that it has to be true. But, the fact of the matter is, the bible is wrong about some things. Sure, it says that murder is wrong, lying is wrong, stealing is wrong, and they all most certainly are; but not because the book said so, or because god declared them to be. They are wrong because they hurt others. Homosexuality, in and of itself, does nothing of the sort, and the problems “caused” by homosexual relationships are no greater than those caused by heterosexual ones.

I’m not trying to bash religion here. I greatly respect it, but at the same time I feel that it has to be questioned. Homosexuality doesn’t make someone a bad person, and heterosexuality doesn’t make someone a good person. There is so much more to everyone’s individual character that it would be a tragedy if something like that could make the difference between heaven and hell, or determine someone’s place in the afterlife. It may sound hokey, but my morals come from my heart, not from a book. I can’t believe that the world is so evil and full of darkness that it is right and just for good people to go to hell for any reason. I also can’t imagine that the nature of the universe could so perfectly conform to Christian ideology. We do not live in a simple world. There are many things we do not know. So, taking religion at face value, without considering the deeper meaning behind it, can only lead to an intellectual dead end; a mess of conclusions with no truth to back them up. God can not love us unconditionally and then say, “If you’re gay you don’t get to go to heaven.” Unconditional love isn’t dependent on sexual orientation. That’s why it’s called “unconditional” love. Our lives are so short in the face of eternity that for God to hate us or turn his back on us would be petty. I don’t believe that God can or should be petty.

In short, I guess I believe that Homosexuals should be able to go to heaven.

[Eternal Novice]

I can't imagine that anyone would go to heaven or hell based on their sexual orientation. There is no intrinsic moral quality within heterosexual or homosexual behavior that would make it right or wrong. I think the reason it’s become such an issue is that people’s views are still widely influenced by religion.

Most of the population is heterosexual, so homosexuality is widely considered to be uncommon and unnatural. For people who don’t like it, religion becomes their confirmation. They declare “Homosexuality is evil!” It’s right there in their book, so they feel that it has to be true. But, the fact of the matter is, the bible is wrong about some things. Sure, it says that murder is wrong, lying is wrong, stealing is wrong, and they all most certainly are; but not because the book said so, or because god declared them to be. They are wrong because they hurt others. Homosexuality, in and of itself, does nothing of the sort, and the problems “caused” by homosexual relationships are no greater than those caused by heterosexual ones.

I’m not trying to bash religion here. I greatly respect it, but at the same time I feel that it has to be questioned. Homosexuality doesn’t make someone a bad person, and heterosexuality doesn’t make someone a good person. There is so much more to everyone’s individual character that it would be a tragedy if something like that could make the difference between heaven and hell, or determine someone’s place in the afterlife. It may sound hokey, but my morals come from my heart, not from a book. I can’t believe that the world is so evil and full of darkness that it is right and just for good people to go to hell for any reason. I also can’t imagine that the nature of the universe could so perfectly conform to Christian ideology. We do not live in a simple world. There are many things we do not know. So, taking religion at face value, without considering the deeper meaning behind it, can only lead to an intellectual dead end; a mess of conclusions with no truth to back them up. God can not love us unconditionally and then say, “If you’re gay you don’t get to go to heaven.” Unconditional love isn’t dependent on sexual orientation. That’s why it’s called “unconditional” love. Our lives are so short in the face of eternity that for God to hate us or turn his back on us would be petty. I don’t believe that God can or should be petty.

In short, I guess I believe that Homosexuals should be able to go to heaven.

[Eternal Novice]

Sorry about the double post. :p

[Guardian7347]

@Eternal - I love you post! Your message is so fundamentally good that it's nearly impossible to dislike it, and your gentle demeanor and pleasant disposition come through very clearly. There's just a little bit of misunderstanding about the bible that I'd like to try and clarify. I shall do this as lightly as possible, following in your lead.
God DOES love unconditionally. Something many sects and individuals all too easily tend to forget. God doesn't hate sinners. Contrary to the upstanding citizens of the Westborough Baptist Church, God doesn't hate gays, jews, blacks, soldiers, lawyers or terrorists. God loves all men(and women) unconditionally, and that includes gays. Regardless of his unconditional love, he cannot abide the presence of sin. He can't be around it. So if someone is in sin, he can't allow them into his presence. Sinners can't enter into Heaven, regardless of how nice or kind they were.
When you strip away all the "thou shalts", the essence of Christianity is really about surrendering free will to God's purpose. What sin ultimately boils down to is a willful act against God. Murder is ending a life before the time designated by God. adultery is violating the sanctity of God's blessing of a union of man and woman. Homosexuality is the perversion of God's design for man and woman. It's like flipping God the middle finger. Let's say you created a chemical gas that was 100% organic, increased crop growth 25%, eliminated 100% of pests, and didn't contaminate the ground water. You'd feel pretty good about that. You'd want to use it to feed mankind. What if, as it turned out, that the gas was an extremely potent neurotoxin in miniscule amounts and the military started using your fertilizer to kill hundreds of thousands of people in afghanistan. Taliban, civilian, whatever. Just killing them all off. Worse, they gave YOU the credit for creating this powerful killing agent. You'd feel very angry over their gross abuse of your creation. That's kind of the God-stance of homosexuality.
Sins aren't wrong just because they hurt people. Let's be honest. If we were really just animals, theft and murder wouldn't be considered bad at all. How does a male lion get a pride of his own? He goes out and steals one from someone older and weaker than himself, leaving the older,weaker male to fend for himself. In female oriented colonies, once the males are done serving their reproductive purposes, they're killed. Female preying mantises even bite the male's head off...literally. Many ancient cultures integrated human sacrifice into their day to day lives, and never thought one thought about it being bad...until Christianity came along. So we got our moral understanding from somewhere other than nature. In short, sins are wrong because God said so.
You're absolutely right. Homosexuality doesn't make someone a bad person. They can still be a good person. Many are as a matter of fact. Practicing homosexuality, according to the bible, is however a sin, and the wages of sin are death. Good people go to hell routinely for a simple reason. Going to heaven isn't about being good, or even doing good deeds. According to the bible, there is but one way to Heaven, and all the good deeds in the world won't get you there. Being Mr. Rogers won't get the job done. Mother Teresa's good works alone won't even get you there. The bible is very explicit in what is required. Accept Christ as lord and savior. Agree to do his will, not your own. There's no lengthy ceremony required. No large donations or sacrifice made. Just accept and believe. By that standard, anyone who goes to hell basically does so as a willful act against God.
There is no doubt that organized religion is riddled with erroneous behavior and bizarre, unbiblical beliefs. I myself am often one of the first to criticize some ofthe worst offenders, and call into question those aspects that legitimately warrant questioning. The church's insistance that the idea of the "big bang" somehow runs contrary to the bible as opposed to confirming the bible is ludicrous to me. I don't claim to know everything about God and his final dispensation on the whole homosexuality issue, nor do I worry about it too much. The bible also clearly states it's God's place to judge man, not man's, certainly not mine. Until God delegates that authority to me, I'll let people live their lives to the best of their understanding, offering up my viewpoints as appropriate or when asked.

[BLUE]

Do I think gays go to heaven? Sure. It is not my call. It's gods. I don't have the right or power to make that call. I also don't have the right to judge other people and the way they live their lives. Sorry...not my department. You'll have to take that upstairs. EN is right though. God is unconditional love.

@guardian...omg sweet pea! I am just picturing the flames of hell licking at Mr. Rogers. Ty for the giggles!

[Guardian7347]

Do I think gays go to heaven? Sure. It is not my call. It's gods. I don't have the right or power to make that call. I also don't have the right to judge other people and the way they live their lives. Sorry...not my department. You'll have to take that upstairs. EN is right though. God is unconditional love.

@guardian...omg sweet pea! I am just picturing the flames of hell licking at Mr. Rogers. Ty for the giggles!

Adds a much creepier undertone to the phrase "Won't you be my neighbor?" lol

[Nancydective]

For the people who are anti-gay. WHO married Adam and Eve? Since there wasn't rabbis, or priests, or immans back then. So how can their marriage be "offical" in your mind? Oh and who did their sons marry?

[DRLHyper]

I am not a Muslim/Jew/Christian, but they answer would be relatively simply; God/Allah himself.

[Nancydective]

I am not a Muslim/Jew/Christian, but they answer would be relatively simply; God/Allah himself.

how can Adam and Eve's marriage be "official" because there wasn't any rabbi/priests/or Imans back then?


"Those who believe in the existence of Adam and Eve as described in Genesis know that God is supposed to have made Eve from one of Adam's ribs because God thought he needed a companion but I don't recall that it ever says that they were actually married. If they were married there wouldn't have been any other human beings to conduct the ceremony" so it seems like their marriage was more of what was a common-law marriage then an "official" marriage with a priest/rabbi/imman

[DRLHyper]

I am not a Muslim/Jew/Christian, but they answer would be relatively simply; God/Allah himself.

how can Adam and Eve's marriage be "official" because there wasn't any rabbi/priests/or Imans back then?

The idea behind it is that 'God stated so'. God/Allah declared that Adam needed a companion, and so was Eve made. We can deduce that Adam and Eve were married from the moment Eve was created.

Furthermore, yes, assuming the Genesis is true there were no instutitions at the time of Adam and Eve. This means that Adam and Eve's "marriage" was no legalized in any way.

However, many Christians/Muslims/Jews would also declare that their marriage was symbolic as opposed to legal. They were following the 'word of God/Allah', after all.

[Justified]

To answer the title of this thread, yes, they do. Only if you believe in the somewhat bigoted views of the bible would you think otherwise, imho.

[agnosticXangel]

In answer to the original topic, yes, at least they should.
Homosexuality is present in all species- Homophobia in only one: ours. Which seems "unnatural" to you?
God is supposed to represent love- and we all should be allowed to love whomever it is we love.
Some may say, "well, we're God's species, so that's why we have homophobia instead of animals- we have received God's word". Maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong.
Personally, I hope you're wrong.

[Vulcanoid]

I can't believe i have read pretty much all this thread. It was interesting, with some very GOOD points. It went a little off topic sometimes, for example: Are Adam and Eve marriage legal? Seriously? Laws as we know today were made by man so there won't be chaos, but order instead. They were the first humans ever created. Who cares if their marriage was legal? Chances are they were underage.
That's not the point. Somehow i don't believe there were only 2 humans created. I have read somewhere that god created a third person, before Eve, for Adam. He said he doesn't like her, so god banished her and created Eve instead.

About animal suicide, i can assure you animals have free will, they have emotion and SURELY they can commit suicide. I won't go in detail, but i had a friend who had a dog ever since he was a kid. They were always together and i believe that dog was a better friend than anyone else. Long story short, my friend went in vacation and had an accident. He died. When they brought his body home, that dog went depressed until one day when he literally strangled himself with the leash. My friend's wife found the dog strangled, with the leash somehow tied to the door knob.

On the real topic, i believe homosexuals WILL go in heaven. What god teaches is love, not hate, not chaos, not lies. And the only difference between homosexuals and others is they they love their same sex. I know this may not be a valid reason, but it doesn't seem fair to banish them. It's also true most gays are gay willingly, and not because of some genetic. Those that WON'T go in heaven are those that won't resist the temptation of having sex against nature (think about anal, oral, gay sex). It's OK to be gay, it's OK to love someone, it's OK to marry someone, but it's not OK to have sex against nature. And to some extend i agree with this.

[agnosticXangel]

I too, have been very impressed with this thread. Seeing that we aren't fighting over our beliefs but actually making clear points in enlightening.
I'm reading a book called "The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Bible" and last night I read a chapter about homosexuality. It brought up the point that there are many different interpretations- some may have simply pointed out that it is only against pagan sex and sex between heterosexual people in gay relations (under the influence, for example) I don't speak Hebrew and can't translate it myself, but it's good to be open minded to the fact that there is much that we don't know about our world and the Word of God.

[Adityasb]

If the gays are good people they will go to heaven. If the religious people are bad the will go to hell!

[DRLHyper]

That's not the point. Somehow i don't believe there were only 2 humans created. I have read somewhere that god created a third person, before Eve, for Adam. He said he doesn't like her, so god banished her and created Eve instead.

Lilith.

But she is a myth that does not appear in the Bible nor in the Qu'ran, and is actually pre-Hebrew. Nowdays it is used a feminist figure.

[Brielle2000]

I once saw an essay somewhat about this subject, that others may want to take a look at. I don't have enough posts to post links, but Google "I'm Christian, unless you're gay" and it should be the first result.

Personally, myself, I believe that yes, gays do go to heaven. Yes, I'm saying this as a gay person (well, as a lesbian, whatever...), but I just want to throw my opinion out there. Firstly, I believe that the Devil is not powerful enough to alter who we are, that's something only God can do -- He is all-powerful. Even if this is not true, I also think God loves us all and wants us to love each other. And finally, I believe that everything happens for a reason even if we don't know or can't comprehend what that reason is, and that homosexuality probably has something to do with population control, I don't know.

We may never truly know, though.

[akasha]

To answer the question,for me I believe in apocatastasis so yes is my answer.

my

[Nancydective]

is the first person prior to Eve, Lilth? Since the White Queen from Narinia's The lion, the witch and the warobe is suppose to be decsended from Lilth

[porscheAyaz]

ALL ROADS LED TO HEAVEN...

[Karengonzalez]

I don't think so

[Lesley]

I'll say what I usually say about this: it's not my job or anyone else's to judge that.

Personally, I try to love all people without judgement, because I feel I'm doing God's work that way. He'll judge us all himself in the end anyway, so why not? As a Christian I take upon myself to spread God's word through messages of love, peace and understanding. I am blessed to be an Asexual Christian among many friends of other religious persuations and sexual orientations who accept me for what I believe, as I accept them. I can't force God's will upon them, I can only use my presence and openness about my religion to hopefully in time shed light on their lives.

[HazyFantayzee]

Of course. Actually... I don't believe in heaven... but if you're asking if gays deserve what the concept of heaven is about then why not.

The relationship between two people of the same sex shouldn't be judged because it isn't considered to be the norm. Same sex couples can share something of way more value than a straight couple and vice versa, depending on the individuals involved.

[HazyFantayzee]

Most of the population is heterosexual, so homosexuality is widely considered to be uncommon and unnatural.

I would disagree... I think there is a whole lot more suppression than we realise because of the expectations imposed by society...

[tropicalheatwave]

what difference does it make where a dead person goes.

might as well create a heaven right here while your still alive.

[LifeChanges]

what difference does it make where a dead person goes.

might as well create a heaven right here while your still alive.

Amen! Live in the here and now, and be happy!

[MissWong]

Yes, they do, in my opinion.

[HazyFantayzee]

In answer to the original topic, yes, at least they should.
Homosexuality is present in all species- Homophobia in only one: ours. Which seems "unnatural" to you?
God is supposed to represent love- and we all should be allowed to love whomever it is we love.
Some may say, "well, we're God's species, so that's why we have homophobia instead of animals- we have received God's word". Maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong.
Personally, I hope you're wrong.

agree

[smartatart]

ya know, i understand God gave everyone free will, but i am seriously pissed with what some people say here. Anyway, according to the bible,(i'll post the verses later) being homosexual is a sin, but again he did give us all free will to do what we choose, and as long as we are true Christians/Catholics, we will go to heaven.

[Steadfast101]

Personally, it doesnt matter what someones sexual orientation is, but as long as youre a good person, you will infact go to heaven.

[smartatart]

Being a good person doesn't get you to heaven, your belief in God and accepting him into your heart does

[Steadfast101]

Being a good person doesn't get you to heaven, your belief in God and accepting him into your heart does

So, if someone murders countless people he will go to heaven as long as he believes in God and has him in his heart? i just want some clarification on your post, thats all.

[smartatart]

i understand, i just wish i had some verses memorized so i could show you. Anyway, if someone does commit countless murders the chances of them being Christian is quite slim, they may be taking advantage of God to do horrible things, and although they may believe they have God in they're hearts, chances are that they really don't. but i suppose if that person really does believe and has accepted god into they're hearts, they will go to heaven. Now lets say that this guys was never a Christian, and after he is let out of jail or whatever, he decides to accept God into his heart, he will be forgiven of his sins. i have seen things like that happen countless times. in the bible it says that if a man commits deed of righteousness for the good of others, and not himself, he will receive a crown when he goes to heaven. Although it is good to be a good person and do good deeds, you do not "earn" heaven. hope i could clear that up for you, if you have any more questions, message/email me. i think you know how

[LifeChanges]

Being a good person doesn't get you to heaven, your belief in God and accepting him into your heart does

So, if someone murders countless people he will go to heaven as long as he believes in God and has him in his heart? i just want some clarification on your post, thats all.

I believe some Christians think that evil is the absence of God. Like darkness is the absence of light. If a man commits murder God is not in his heart. But should he choose to let Him in after the crime, he technically should be forgiven of his trespasses and accepted into the fold.

[smartatart]

Being a good person doesn't get you to heaven, your belief in God and accepting him into your heart does

So, if someone murders countless people he will go to heaven as long as he believes in God and has him in his heart? i just want some clarification on your post, thats all.

I believe some Christians think that evil is the absence of God. Like darkness is the absence of light. If a man commits murder God is not in his heart. But should he choose to let Him in after the crime, he technically should be forgiven of his trespasses and accepted into the fold.

Thank You, Life Changes. It is very hard to get a point across when your typing, so, IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS, open up that bible you keep in the closet, i'm sure you'll find something

[LifeChanges]

It is very hard to get a point across when your typing...

It comes with experience and when you are calm.

[smartatart]

Are you saying i am not calm?

[LifeChanges]

Not right now. It sounds like you want to pick a fight.

[smartatart]

With whom? i do not wish to get in an argument. We may be slightly debating on the topic but that is quite different from being aggravated.

[Steadfast101]

like i said, i wanted some clarification to what you were saying. i didnt want to start a fight. and as to what i said, thats what i personally believe

[LifeChanges]

IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS, open up that bible you keep in the closet, i'm sure you'll find something

This is an antagonizing statement either consciously or subconsciously stated to provoke. If you have no wish to start a fight, statements like this don't help your cause.

[smartatart]

a respect your point of view on things and I'm not exactly positive that we're fighting. Anyway a hope i could clear that up for you.

[smartatart]

IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS, open up that bible you keep in the closet, i'm sure you'll find something

This is an antagonizing statement either consciously or subconsciously stated to provoke. If you have no wish to start a fight, statements like this don't help your cause.

oh, that was caps lock. sorry.

[LifeChanges]

It's alright.

[smartatart]

nice laughing face

[paulo]

from a biblical point of view, i belive theres only 10 commandments you need to follow to get into christian heaven, and one of thoose is to not convert your neihbours oxen.. my neihbour has such great oxen gggrrr im well jel

" people fear what they dont understand, show them the beuty of that thing and they are no longer afraid because it has become part of them".. bruce lee

[VenusInChains]

I find it ironic that the bible is full of incest and men with multiple wives who have sex with their wives servants. Modern day society looks down on these things, yet the christian god doesn't? Then we look to the bible for answers about how we should view homosexuality and completely ignore these taboo things.

[Nancydective]

I find it ironic that the bible is full of incest and men with multiple wives who have sex with their wives servants. Modern day society looks down on these things, yet the christian god doesn't? Then we look to the bible for answers about how we should view homosexuality and completely ignore these taboo things.

Not to mention the bible (old testmant) says:

we can sell our children into slavery
we shouldn't eat shellfish
we shouldn't wear mix clothing
women shouldn't wear any men's clothing

[paulo]

the bible also says that if your wofe is misbehaving you must put her on the roof!!