a question of divinity

[The Eagle]

in your opinion can god do something or create something that is not divine?

[Vulcanoid]

Depends what you mean by divine. If jesus divine? Are angels divine? And humans? Are they divine?

One would say jesus truly is divine... if so, then Yes, god can create something divine.

[The Eagle]

the question is can god do something or create something that is not divine though.

[Vulcanoid]

the question is can god do something or create something that is not divine though.

Ask yourself then, is a criminal divine? Or a child molester? Nope, i'm pretty sure they are NOT divine in my book.

[The Eagle]

So then in your opinion what makes a murderer not divine?

[Vulcanoid]

Well, I don't really believe God has any power and direct influence over this world, but he labeled murder as one of the most intense sins. And we all know God hates sin. Then, how can God hate something that's divine?
So i go back to my first post. What's divine really? God? And the closer you are to God, the closer to divinity you are?
I'm a believer that humans are born evil and they learn to be good. Some of them learn the lesson, some of them DON'T, therefore they go to Hell (if Hell truly exists). Life could be just a test, an exam, see if we DESERVE to go to heaver.
Think about a parent and a child. The parent says he will give chocolate to the child if he does good deeds. The child can either e good and get the chocolate, or he can be stubborn and troublesome.

Waiting a reply on this...

[The Eagle]

i dont believe everyone is born evil. evil itself is a judgement after an action - but lets try to stick on topic.

well ok lets clear up what divine means:

of or like God or a god.

so thats what divine is. now murder - the bibilical god murders some 1 million people in the bible. so a murderer is like god. divine.

for saying god created the world - or everything comes from god, then all things must be divine - including all the bad things.

the result of this is - god cant do anything that is not divine. and if god can create something that is not divine - then god him/herself cant be wholly good.

if everything that exists is an expression of "the creator" - then eveything is divine.

[Nightingale]

If I may intrude, I'd like to throw my hat into this ring.
1. I feel you should elaborate to me these "murders of God", probably with a few examples, so we can discuss what many consider to be the "crimes of god"
2.I believe everything was divine until, being a Christian, the sin of Adam, etc. and can you elaborate on divinity?
3.You two talk as if God was the creator of sin, which he is not.
4. ALL sin is equal in God's eyes, in the Bible.
5. God can directly influence the world and does some times, but often I think he tries to avoid defying our gift of free will.
... Any Questions?

[The Eagle]

If I may intrude, I'd like to throw my hat into this ring.
1. I feel you should elaborate to me these "murders of God", probably with a few examples, so we can discuss what many consider to be the "crimes of god"
2.I believe everything was divine until, being a Christian, the sin of Adam, etc. and can you elaborate on divinity?
3.You two talk as if God was the creator of sin, which he is not.
4. ALL sin is equal in God's eyes, in the Bible.
5. God can directly influence the world and does some times, but often I think he tries to avoid defying our gift of free will.
... Any Questions?

sure - many of these questions are for different threads perhaps but i will give a quick explanation:

1, the bible has many instances where god kills people. flood being the biggest example of course. how many innocent children, pregnant women with unborn children died in that flood? - let me clarify something- to describe them as "crimes" of god (which i haven't), you are judging god on "gods rules" so it doesnt really apply. "do as i say not as i do".

2. hmmm.... so you think the snakey snakey on adam's and eve's back was divine?

the dictionary definition of divine was posted. so if anything is "of god" is divine anything that is "like god" is divine. so you could describe divinity is something that shows signs of a divine aspect. god kills - so murder is just as "divine" as love.

3. if god was not the creator of sin then we have two creators. now sin could be described as "going away from gods rules" - so this doesnt deal with divinity - if anything not following gods rules is more divine as god doesnt follow gods rules - hence all people god kills....

4. sin has nothing to do with being divine or divinity - as sin is breaking from gods rules - the rules that god doesnt follow - according to the bible.

5. interesting - in your opinion is free will divine?

[Vulcanoid]

For a non-religious guy such as myself, i defend God quite nicely.

God can kill everyone right at this moment because people are born sinners by default, therefore God does not commit any sin by killing a man. Life is His to take away.
Man should NOT kill because man is equal to man. We are sinners and it's not up to us to judge; dead or live, not our call.

Evil is not a creation of God. There is no such thing as Evil in the Universe. There's God, and there's Without God.
Just a different part of the same coin. The very existence of God created that which we know as "evil". Darkness does no exist. Darkness can not be measured. There's light (a measurable power) and No Light (darkness, which is nothing)

All sin is equal, that's why all humans are equal. There's no rich, no poor, no ugly, no beautiful. God doesn't care if you're a girl or a guy, if you're smart or stupid as a rock. There's only Sin.

God can't intervene in the waking world. At the creation of the world he set some definite rules which even he can't break. The rule that nothing can't give birth to something is one of those rules. The rule of gravity. Most of those rules are already discovered and we know them under the name of the rules of physics.

Those rules are all as real as the bread you eat, and God can't break them. He WON'T break them for the sake of man.

No one has a personal God. You can't pray him to give you a car or money or a beautiful wife. God helps only those that CAN HELP THEMSELVES. So if you sit all day doing nothing, don't expect money to rain down the sky.
God is helping you. He gave you a fricking brain to think, 2 arms to work with and 2 legs to walk. By default, you should use those tools to make your life better.

[The Eagle]

God can kill everyone right at this moment because people are born sinners by default, therefore God does not commit any sin by killing a man. Life is His to take away .

“Again do as I say not as I do” – we have established that what is called as “sinning” has nothing to do with divinity. Divinity is about gods actions and what god is like. so it allows the possibility for something to be considered a sin and also divine.- eg -the act of killing people.

Man should NOT kill because man is equal to man. We are sinners and it's not up to us to judge; dead or live, not our call..

All men are not equal – nice concept but to call all men equal is to gloss over the differences. There is nothing wrong with being not equal. How can you say “we are equal” if you don’t judge?

Evil is not a creation of God. There is no such thing as Evil in the Universe. There's God, and there's Without God.
Just a different part of the same coin. The very existence of God created that which we know as "evil". Darkness does no exist. Darkness can not be measured. There's light (a measurable power) and No Light (darkness, which is nothing) .

I disagree with the method and theory being applied and then the result you get here. If god is a coin then god is both sides – “light and dark”. God is then both evil and good.
Besides light is impermanent – darkness is the natural state of things – so if god is light – then god is something impermanent that creates a “fake” reality.
The whole measure thing – limits god to not just what mankind can observe – but also how we can observe.

All sin is equal, that's why all humans are equal. There's no rich, no poor, no ugly, no beautiful. God doesn't care if you're a girl or a guy, if you're smart or stupid as a rock. There's only Sin. .

This god you speak of seems partially sighted or so blinded by his own rules that he can only see sin. Look around there is rich people, there are poor, there are ugly and beautiful people. If god did create mankind –then he created differences in people.

God can't intervene in the waking world. .

Interesting – what else can’t god do??

God is helping you. He gave you a fricking brain to think, 2 arms to work with and 2 legs to walk. .

No………. that would be my parents using their free will to create “yet another sinner”……….

By default, you should use those tools to make your life better.

If God gave us free will then nothing is by default.
Vulcanoid – so what do you think - Is free will divine? Is not following gods rules “divine”

[Vulcanoid]

IT seems that whatever we say, there's always an argument to counter it. I guess that's why religion is not perfect . It's too easy to counter with well placed words.

I won't reply each of your points. It's too tiresome.
But yes, free will is divine. It's actually the closest thing to Divinity humans can have.

Edit: That still doesn't mean we can use that Free Will to do things against God. That's why i kinda don't like this God.... It's either with him, or against him
Not fair.

[Nightingale]

the reason that this is so arguable is because religion shouldn't be a matter of dogma that drowns one in grief or questions that are unanswerable and altogether don't matter, but it should be about faith and let self-improvement gently come afterward.
WARRIORS 4 CHRIST, UNITE!!!

[The Eagle]

But yes, free will is divine. It's actually the closest thing to Divinity humans can have.

Edit: That still doesn't mean we can use that Free Will to do things against God. That's why i kinda don't like this God.... It's either with him, or against him
Not fair.

as free will allows "good" and "evil" to take place/exist. something soley good that has free will - allows evil to take place/exist. therefore divinity and indeed god cant be solely "good".

i would say you cant do anything that is against god. if everything comes from god, and eveything is divine - then all we are left with is, you have actions that other humans will consider for or against the god, good/evil according to their own beliefs.

[The Eagle]

the reason that this is so arguable is because religion shouldn't be a matter of dogma that drowns one in grief or questions that are unanswerable and altogether don't matter, but it should be about faith and let self-improvement gently come afterward.
WARRIORS 4 CHRIST, UNITE!!!

hmmm.... religions such as all the ones that have a written word considered gods words or even sacred - it is about dogma its about faith in that dogma.

- what you are loosely describing is "spirituality" which belongs to no god, no religion and covers all human beings.

ok lets forget the dogma. without dogma - what leads someone to believe that god is "solely good", and therefore "divinity" is about being "solely good"?

[Vulcanoid]

as free will allows "good" and "evil" to take place/exist. something soley good that has free will - allows evil to take place/exist. therefore divinity and indeed god cant be solely "good".

No one claims our God is good... To be honest, i don't really believe in good and evil. There's what we THINK it's good and what we THINK it's evil.
God set some rules (as i said earlier). Most of those rules are good in out mortal eyes because God said they are good.
There's no such thing as something pure good with free will. Even angels don't have free will because they have already seen God, and doing anything against God would result in their banishment.
The only beings with free will are humans. Period.

edit: Pff i wish aliens would make the first contact already and teach us some more about God and the myth of creation.
I wouldn't be surprised if humans were created by some extraterrestrial force, or a group of beings. Back in those days, someone with a gun would look like a God in the eyes of the primitive man. Being able to kill something with a thundering sound (of course they wouldn't know about bullets)

[Nightingale]

- what you are loosely describing is "spirituality" which belongs to no god, no religion and covers all human beings.


I think your ideas on what Christianity or maybe other religions may be a skewed from what it really is. Perhaps too many money-grabbing Televangelists.
You see, the main point, or at least one of them, is knowing that we are all sinners, thus true divinity among us is impossible and virtually a hopeless endeavor, though we should still strive for it. It is about knowing this and taking on faith that Jesus will absolve us of the sin and knowing that it is not trying to be good that will get someone salvation but this faith that will. self-improvement comes after you take faith. then there is the whole love others stuff we've all heard. But the point is knowing that we CAN'T be truly divine ( on God's level) and the only true divinity is too be perfect, without wrongdoing and evil thoughts, which is among us all.

I kinda messed up the quote thing...

[Nightingale]

as free will allows "good" and "evil" to take place/exist. something soley good that has free will - allows evil to take place/exist. therefore divinity and indeed god cant be solely "good".

No one claims our God is good... To be honest, i don't really believe in good and evil. There's what we THINK it's good and what we THINK it's evil.
God set some rules (as i said earlier). Most of those rules are good in out mortal eyes because God said they are good.
There's no such thing as something pure good with free will. Even angels don't have free will because they have already seen God, and doing anything against God would result in their banishment.
The only beings with free will are humans. Period.

edit: Pff i wish aliens would make the first contact already and teach us some more about God and the myth of creation.
I wouldn't be surprised if humans were created by some extraterrestrial force, or a group of beings. Back in those days, someone with a gun would look like a God in the eyes of the primitive man. Being able to kill something with a thundering sound (of course they wouldn't know about bullets)

Who says aliens know any more about God than we do? What if they're as lost as we are, but with awesome technology?
I believe that even angels have free will, just being able to choose to be banished is a sign of free will (Adam and Eve). according to christianity and islam, satan always chose to disobey God even though he was once an angel.

[The Eagle]

No one claims our God is good... To be honest, i don't really believe in good and evil. There's what we THINK it's good and what we THINK it's evil.
God set some rules (as i said earlier). Most of those rules are good in out mortal eyes because God said they are good.
There's no such thing as something pure good with free will. Even angels don't have free will because they have already seen God, and doing anything against God would result in their banishment.
The only beings with free will are humans. Period.

well the rule you said earlier doesnt make sense from a logical point of view. something cant come from nothing - sure fine but you are already saying something exists by acknowledging god made that rule.

anyway so what you have is god that is good and bad - makes rules for people that can decide good/bad by themselves. seems this god is surprising like a government - funny that. i dont know if you hav ever researched the 10 commandments but these were in place in pretty much most civilisations long before they found thier way into the bible. and of course god setting these rules and not following them him/herself makes god a hypocrite.....

i would argue that god didnt set any rules anyway - but anyway we are detracting from the main point of the thread - divinity is not about gods rules he sets mankind.

The only beings with free will are humans. Period.

does god have free will?

edit: Pff i wish aliens would make the first contact already and teach us some more about God and the myth of creation.
I wouldn't be surprised if humans were created by some extraterrestrial force, or a group of beings. Back in those days, someone with a gun would look like a God in the eyes of the primitive man. Being able to kill something with a thundering sound (of course they wouldn't know about bullets)

these are what i describe as "unicorn arguments". like nightingale says - there is no reason to suppose they know anything more about creation than us - let alone existing in the first place.

in a way "aliens" shows an example of an argument based on faith as aopposed to logic. it's a "unicorn argument".

[The Eagle]

I think your ideas on what Christianity or maybe other religions may be a skewed from what it really is. Perhaps too many money-grabbing Televangelists.
You see, the main point, or at least one of them, is knowing that we are all sinners, thus true divinity among us is impossible and virtually a hopeless endeavor, though we should still strive for it. It is about knowing this and taking on faith that Jesus will absolve us of the sin and knowing that it is not trying to be good that will get someone salvation but this faith that will. self-improvement comes after you take faith. then there is the whole love others stuff we've all heard. But the point is knowing that we CAN'T be truly divine ( on God's level) and the only true divinity is too be perfect, without wrongdoing and evil thoughts, which is among us all.

I kinda messed up the quote thing...

not at all. you see not being christian - i am no sinner. that would be judging me on a christains beliefs - in the same way god would be a sinner if judged by the same methods - (and i havent killed anyone - god has. ). then if we are judging everyone by other peoples religious rules - christians are against god. you see judging people is not supposed to be done but calling other people sinners is judging and "throwing the first stone".

so lets get back to the divinity idea then. i will ask again you seemed to have missed it- without dogma, what leads someone to believe that god is solely good - perfect without wrongdoing and evil thoughts?

without dogma there is no reason to believe it as the concept has no logical foundation.

[Nightingale]

What i pass is not judgement but the truth that all of us are equal in our sin and to say that you are sinless in any religion is stupid. all religions realize the human flaw and i'm sure all have a sense of wrong and right. on to the whole god killing thing, I do not believe this was quite his will or in accordance with his plan. when the israelites went off to war with another tribe, they usually defending their own or they did so without thought for God's will. if god doesn't stop us from telling a lie every time we feel the urge, why should he stop us from comiting other sins? that does not go with free will. A great example to sum up what i'm talking about is in Samuel. God wanted to come down and be the direct king of the Israelites, but they wanted a human king. God says,"Do as they say, give them a human king, for I am the one they are rejecting, not you-they do not want me to be their king any longer. Ever since I brought them from Egypt they have continually forsaken me and followed other gods. And now they are giving you the same treatment. Do as they ask, but warn them about what it will be like with a human king."
The dogma I refer to is the stuff that micromanages thing like what we eat and dress in, leviticus kind of stuff. What leads me to believe God is pure is... well many things. historical accuracy of the bible, prophetic accuracy of the bible and the morals God teaches that seems to be beyond what humans could truly comprehend. Have you ever really known someone who has NEVER gone against any of the laws of God? Have you ever done the research yourself besides listening to other people? what you find if you get proper guidance may surprise you.

Oh, and according to God, you probably did kill people. Jesus went to say that just holding anger against someone makes you guilty of murder. Have you ever lied, stolen, had sex outside of marriage, thought about having sex with someone other than your spouse, thought angrily, do you honor your mother and father, and do you love yur neighbors as yourself? then according to Jesus your a sinner like all other humans.

We are not judging people, for that is not ours to do. but what we do is go by what God told us, that EVERYONE is a sinner, including the christians. I am a sinner myself, how I could go on about the things I have done against God. so if i'm throwing stones, i'm also beating myself with one . I'm not judging, I'm not casting anyone to Hell or Sheol, whatever you wanna call it. I'm passing on the truth about all men, WE are all sinners.

[The Eagle]

What i pass is not judgement but the truth that all of us are equal in our sin and to say that you are sinless in any religion is stupid.

No one has said that. I said if you are to judge me on sin according to a religion that is not my own, then I can judge you on being against god according to a religion that is not your own.

all religions realize the human flaw and i'm sure all have a sense of wrong and right.

You are saying all religions realise the flaw that is only a flaw according to the religion you follow……….

on to the whole god killing thing, I do not believe this was quite his will or in accordance with his plan. when the israelites went off to war with another tribe, they usually defending their own or they did so without thought for God's will.

Again – flood. He killed innocent unborn sinless children, he did it deliberately according to the bible.

The dogma I refer to is the stuff that micromanages thing like what we eat and dress in, leviticus kind of stuff.

So you are saying some of the things that god said – isn’t important? Some rules that god laid down according to the bible – are not important.

What leads me to believe God is pure is... well many things. historical accuracy of the bible

What about the historical inaccuracies that are also in the bible?

prophetic accuracy of the bible

Interesting – what has the bible prophetically claimed that is accurate?

and the morals God teaches that seems to be beyond what humans could truly comprehend.

So you think god is able to teach something that we can’t comprehend? If we can’t comprehend it – there is no point in trying to teach it. it would be a big mistake to assume that morals are not based on human wants.

Have you ever really known someone who has NEVER gone against any of the laws of God? Have you ever done the research yourself besides listening to other people? what you find if you get proper guidance may surprise you.

Lol ok – here is how it works. I will set a rule -
If someone ever breathes, ever eats or drinks or thinks – they are divine and gods thinks they are great.
So I set a rule that everyone will break and oh look – everyone is divine and god thinks they are great. It would be good for you to read some information on the growth of civilisation – and see where the rules and morals of the bible came from.

Oh, and according to God, you probably did kill people. Jesus went to say that just holding anger against someone makes you guilty of murder.

Then jesus would not only be wrong but if that was the case it would also mean jesus was guilty of murder…….

Have you ever lied.

Yes – when my wife says “does my bum look big in this” – sometimes I say “no” when I don’t mean it. its ok though god spoke to me and said it was a good thing to do……….

stolen.

nope.

had sex outside of marriage.

yep. God was there watching – he said it was a good show and that it wasn’t sinning.

thought about having sex with someone other than your spouse, .

Sure. Again god said it was ok because he could see my thoughts and he told me he would have to nip down to hell to masturbate after seeing them.

thought angrily.

yep – anger is a human emotion. Like I said jesus got angry so the point is pretty moot if you are holding up jesus as whiter than white. Besides god told me that it was ok to get angry sometimes – hell god gets angry a lot – according to the bible.

do you honour your mother and father.

yes I do – I honour them by living my life – but more importantly I honour them as the reason I am who I am. My folks are amazing people that have never done wrong by anyone.

and do you love yur neighbors as yourself? .

Nope. That would be silly. But god doesn’t like them either so he said it was ok.

Then according to Jesus your a sinner like all other humans.

and according to many other demi gods through history I am not. And according to god I am not – he told me.
You got anything else? The idea that any one of these things are against god – is ridiculous. They are against societies order – again some research on the growth of civilisation will open up your horizons.

We are not judging people, for that is not ours to do. .

You are not judging people – you are just judging people…. based on writing from 2000+ years ago.

but what we do is go by what God told us, that EVERYONE is a sinner, including the christians. .

God told me otherwise – he did tell me christians were sinners though.

I am a sinner myself, how I could go on about the things I have done against God. so if i'm throwing stones, i'm also beating myself with one . .

Why would you feel the need to beat yourself with a stone? I think you may of mistaken the moral of the stone throwing story.

I'm not judging, I'm not casting anyone to Hell or Sheol, whatever you wanna call it. I'm passing on the truth about all men, WE are all sinners.

Again - you are against god. you will not get to heaven by following jesus. In fact following jesus puts you to hell.
It’s the truth……. According to other religions.
Perhaps that’s something you can consider - you could add that into the things you post – not that we are all sinners – but the fact that calling people sinners is based on what one book states- perhaps put a disclaimer in saying there are other books and older religions available? Just a suggestion……….

Anyway fun over - lets get back to the thread topic about divinity. You see “sinning” (as christians see it) is neither here nor there when it comes to divinity.

[DRLHyper]

Depends on what you mean by "divine".

[The Eagle]

adjective (diviner, divinest)

1 of or like God or a god:
- heroes with divine powers
- paintings of shipwrecks being prevented by divine intervention
devoted to God; sacred:
- divine liturgy

2 informal very pleasing; delightful:

he had the most divine smilenoun
1 dated a cleric or theologian.
2 (the Divine) providence or God.

Derivatives
divinely
adverb
divineness
noun

Origin: late Middle English: via Old French from Latin divinus, from divus 'godlike' (related to deus 'god')

that is the definitions of divine.

so basically divine concerning god - it depends on how you define god. if you limit god to the biblical descirption or if you dont divinity is based on how you define god.

[Vulcanoid]

does god have free will?

I don't consider God a being. Rather a concept or an organization, even a nation. God could be a group of gnomes in pink bikini that created everything we know.

these are what i describe as "unicorn arguments". like nightingale says - there is no reason to suppose they (aliens) know anything more about creation than us - let alone existing in the first place.

I beg to differ. According to the bible, humans are (about) 4000 years old, while there is proof there were civilizations far before 4000 years ago.
If what i said above is only closely true, and IF aliens exist and are space faring already, chances are they were in our Universe way before humans, and they could have influenced our evolution on earth.
Who is God? The creator right? We know that God created everything we know. But what IF those "aliens" created life on this piece of rock we call Earth?

Don't get me wrong. I doubt aliens are green men in spacesuits flying in a space ship. What if those aliens are more like... spiritual beings?
Today, when someone says "alien" we think of some E.T. with cool guns. But in truth, alien is everything that's not Earth. That's the definition.
And that's what God is, according to the Bible.
Because God created Earth, it means he's not from Earth => God is an alien (again please don't think about green men in suits. It's all media bullshit)
No one ever said that God created the Universe. Not even the bible. I'm writing this with the bible in my hand and it looks to me that God created only Earth, OR AT THE VERY LEAST, our solar system. Fin.

Again – flood. He killed innocent unborn sinless children, he did it deliberately according to the bible.

All the children of men are born in sin. Just because they are cute, doesn't mean babies are sinless.

When i remember something else to say I'll post. By the way, great thread. I waited for someone to start a discussion about God without all the judging based on what you say (religious people tend to be rather harsh when you present them a new idea. Atheists or those that are not religious are better listeners)

[The Eagle]

does god have free will?

I don't consider God a being. Rather a concept or an organization, even a nation. God could be a group of gnomes in pink bikini that created everything we know. )

Interesting! My own personal beliefs are close to this – not in terms of god – but in terms of what god is in terms of a religion - an ideal, hence the need for some for god to be solely good.

these are what i describe as "unicorn arguments". like nightingale says - there is no reason to suppose they (aliens) know anything more about creation than us - let alone existing in the first place.

[I beg to differ. According to the bible, humans are (about) 4000 years old, while there is proof there were civilizations far before 4000 years ago.

The age of the earth depending on the bible differs – some say 6000. The oldest temple found is 12,000BC – it didn’t have a copy of the bible in it though. Lol.

If what i said above is only closely true, and IF aliens exist and are space faring already, chances are they were in our Universe way before humans, and they could have influenced our evolution on earth.
Who is God? The creator right? We know that God created everything we know. But what IF those "aliens" created life on this piece of rock we call Earth?

Too many episodes of Stargate. You see judging an aliens ability to fly through space as being amazing is just because we don’t find it easy yet. What if life in some form can travel though space like a bird in the sky – you saying because a bird can fly he is smarter than you?
What if unicorns existed and gave birth to some magic beans that grew up to be the universe? – unicorn arguments.

Don't get me wrong. I doubt aliens are green men in spacesuits flying in a space ship. What if those aliens are more like... spiritual beings?
Today, when someone says "alien" we think of some E.T. with cool guns. But in truth, alien is everything that's not Earth. That's the definition.

True and until we meet one and decide what it is – it is fantasy.

And that's what God is, according to the Bible.

Incorrect – the bible says god is everywhere so the big guy is on the earth too - according to the bible.

Because God created Earth, it means he's not from Earth => God is an alien (again please don't think about green men in suits. It's all media bullshit)
No one ever said that God created the Universe. Not even the bible. I'm writing this with the bible in my hand and it looks to me that God created only Earth, OR AT THE VERY LEAST, our solar system. Fin.

Giving a very manlike quality to god again. A painter or a sculptor. God isn’t a man. The rules don’t apply.

Again – flood. He killed innocent unborn sinless children, he did it deliberately according to the bible.

All the children of men are born in sin. Just because they are cute, doesn't mean babies are sinless.

Why are they born in sin? Check the bit about sins of the father not being passed down to the kid. Therefore until that kid commits a sin – then it is sinless. Unless you are saying they commit sin in the womb – god killed innocents.

When i remember something else to say I'll post. By the way, great thread. I waited for someone to start a discussion about God without all the judging based on what you say (religious people tend to be rather harsh when you present them a new idea. Atheists or those that are not religious are better listeners)

[Vulcanoid]

Too many episodes of Stargate. You see judging an aliens ability to fly through space as being amazing is just because we don’t find it easy yet. What if life in some form can travel though space like a bird in the sky – you saying because a bird can fly he is smarter than you?
What if unicorns existed and gave birth to some magic beans that grew up to be the universe? – unicorn arguments.

On the contrary. I don't even watch allot of SF mainly because they are all... unrealistic lol xD. No but seriously, if you're going to make a SF movie don't just throw stuff in there for the cool factor.

Back on topic: What if those Aliens don't even fly? Maybe the can bend the space and time to their will. Or maybe they are ethereal in nature and just "walk" through all the space.
I don't believe space faring is just about rocket ships and flying through space in a big ass saucer. Maybe that's the reason why humans are not able to accomplish that yet. Maybe we weren't "made" to be able to explore the universe.... only time will tell i guess.
Angels can "fly" so to speak. They are described as 'winged'. Maybe those "wings" allow them to step through the physical world into the ethereal world. Even in the bible there are many reports of angels interacting with humans in the real world.

Back on topic even more: It is said in the bible that God created humans in his image. Now if some "aliens" would reveal to us and they would looks like humans, most people will rage, saying that's impossible for an alien to look human. The thing is, we look like God, and not God looks like us.
So chances are we are allot more like God than any other creatures on Earth.

[DRLHyper]

[When i remember something else to say I'll post. By the way, great thread. I waited for someone to start a discussion about God without all the judging based on what you say (religious people tend to be rather harsh when you present them a new idea. Atheists or those that are not religious are better listeners)

Usually. Atheism however is belief reversed, so expect some of them to become straw men when you prove them wrong.

[The Eagle]

Back on topic: What if those Aliens don't even fly? Maybe the can bend the space and time to their will. Or maybe they are ethereal in nature and just "walk" through all the space.

Again it doesn’t mean that if something can bend space and time that they are more advanced – or closer to god. it just means we can’t do that at the moment so we think it’s amazing. Without the knowledge of how it works – then “god” fills the gap in our understanding like a label over a crack to prevent people looking inside and gain understanding.

Could it mean they are closer to god? – sure its possible. just as unicorns are possible. The world actually being “flat” is possible.

Back on topic even more: It is said in the bible that God created humans in his image. Now if some "aliens" would reveal to us and they would looks like humans, most people will rage, saying that's impossible for an alien to look human. The thing is, we look like God, and not God looks like us.
So chances are we are allot more like God than any other creatures on Earth.

I don’t know if you are familiar with the cat bible? Probably not since I am making it up… but somewhere near the front of it it states:

“meow meow meow, meow meow meow, meow Meow Meow meow meow meow meow”

You speak Cattish? - it loosely translates to “ in the beginning there was god, and god created cat in his own image, later on god created man to serve the godlike cats so they didn’t didn’t have to go hunting or clean their poop up from the litter tray”

– and yes wild cats such as lions, tigers (and bears oh my!) are going against gods command.

Then of course there’s the cow bible. do you speak Cowish? Here comes the quote……

“mooooo, mooo mooooo, mooo , mooo”

This loosely translates to “in the beginning there was god, and god created a cow in his own image. Cows being in the image of god sacrifice themselves to provide for the selfish other species such as mankind wants for milk and cheese and most importantly – the most divine food – cheese burgers.”

How familiar with the unicorn bible are you? Don’t worry - most people aren’t, again because I am making it up as I type – but the unicorn bible states – “unicorny corny corny corny, unicorny corny corny corny corny”

Funny language I know – but this translates to “in the beginning there was god, and god created unicorns in his own image. never to be seen – and some species created later will think it a myth – hence it being in the image of god.”

Joking aside - you get the idea here. We as mankind have stated god created man in gods image – until some other species has stated it – then it’s a unicorn argument.

[The one]

There are some good arguments in this topic, but I beieve that divinity is just god-like. It doesn't mean that if a god-like being created something, the thing it created would HAVE to be divine. For instance, if a god created some ball of magic, it could very likely be divine, but if a god created a normal human, or a rubber ball, that would not be divine...

[The Eagle]

There are some good arguments in this topic, but I beieve that divinity is just god-like. It doesn't mean that if a god-like being created something, the thing it created would HAVE to be divine. For instance, if a god created some ball of magic, it could very likely be divine, but if a god created a normal human, or a rubber ball, that would not be divine...

hmmm - there is a big limitation for cutting the definition of divinity down to only what is "godlike" though.

you are suggesting that what determines if something is divine or not is what we as humans consider "normal".

ask yourself - is there anything that isn't fantasy - eg - "a ball of magic" that is divine?

is there anything that is what we call "normal" that is also divine?

you see if something exists - then it is "normal" on a universal level.

[The one]

Well Eagle, my defintion of divine was 'god-like', so it depends if there is any 'god-like' thing in existence at the moment. Honestly I don't have any examples of a possible divine thing that isn't fantasy, and I also don't know any possible divine things that we could consider as normal. But if something was divine would it really be normal anyway?

I guess you could say that God is the only thing that some people consider divine, but beyond that I really don't know.

[The Eagle]

Well Eagle, my defintion of divine was 'god-like', so it depends if there is any 'god-like' thing in existence at the moment. Honestly I don't have any examples of a possible divine thing that isn't fantasy, and I also don't know any possible divine things that we could consider as normal. But if something was divine would it really be normal anyway?

I guess you could say that God is the only thing that some people consider divine, but beyond that I really don't know.

ask yourself what normal means on a universal level. dont get bogged down by limiting "normal" to humankind.

so to consider what is divine - your definition of divine relies only on what god is like. so what is god like?

[The one]

Well, God is said to be omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent, but I don't believe that being divine means having to be benevolent, omniscient or omni potent. Also, godlike doesn't mean 'like the god everyone thinks about', it just means like A god, not like THE god.

[The Eagle]

Well, God is said to be omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent, but I don't believe that being divine means having to be benevolent, omniscient or omni potent. Also, godlike doesn't mean 'like the god everyone thinks about', it just means like A god, not like THE god.

interesting suddenly a divide beteween divine the real god like............

so your divine inculudes other gods that are not THE god?

so "divine" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "the real god"??

so dive isnt about the real god like - but just any god that anyone thinks about?

definition suddenely beomces verfy wde.

[Eternal Novice]

This comes down to whether or not one believes people are inherently good or inherently evil. If we are inherently evil, then the answer is yes, otherwise we could not exist assuming we were created by a divine god. If people are inherently good, then no; because despite our flaws there would have to be certain divine "qualities" inherent in each and evey one of us that we would ideally be able to access if we tried.

[The Eagle]

This comes down to whether or not one believes people are inherently good or inherently evil. If we are inherently evil, then the answer is yes, otherwise we could not exist assuming we were created by a divine god. If people are inherently good, then no; because despite our flaws there would have to be certain divine "qualities" inherent in each and evey one of us that we would ideally be able to access if we tried.

its not limited to people though.

the idea that something is evil and not being divine - then we have god not being the source of all things.

if god is the source of all things - then evil itself must of come from god - which of course would make it divine.

[The one]

Well, God is said to be omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent, but I don't believe that being divine means having to be benevolent, omniscient or omni potent. Also, godlike doesn't mean 'like the god everyone thinks about', it just means like A god, not like THE god.

interesting suddenly a divide beteween divine the real god like............

so your divine inculudes other gods that are not THE god?

so "divine" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "the real god"??

so dive isnt about the real god like - but just any god that anyone thinks about?

definition suddenely beomces verfy wde.

No, I assume that god is divine, AND other gods.

[Eternal Novice]

You make a good point, but when we call something evil, we are really just making a measurement based on our perception of the quality of the thing we're judging, and our perceptions are shaped by a variety of factors, including our own personal values, our environment, and our upbringing. As a form of measurement, Evil is consistently inaccurate; its too subjective. Trying to measure the divinity of evil is like trying to measure the divinity of an inch or a liter; arguably impossible.
The Idea that evil is a metaphysical construct created by a divine god doesn't make sense, because evil is a mental construct; it's shaped by our minds. It would be much more accurate to describe "evil" as a "lack of divinity"; which implies that there is a certain level of it, even if it is barely perceptible.

[The one]

Good point, though I didn't mention that 'a divine god' created evil, and also I agree with you that some things people consider evil is just because of their upbringing, what their taught, mental e.t.c. but I'm sure harming an innocent being for no reason would be evil would it not?

[Eternal Novice]

I guess what I was trying to say is that if the concept of evil only exists in the mind, then it isn't real. If evil isn't real, then there is no point to asking whether or not it is divine.

[The Eagle]

Interesting. So why judge evil as a personal perception and not divinity?

[Eternal Novice]

If evil exists as more than a mental construct, then it would have to be as some kind of force or energy, which would logically put it in the same category as light, heat, or electricity; the divinity of which could be argued. However, if we do this, the concept of evil no longer makes sense. When we say something is cold or that an area is dark, what we really mean is that there is a lack of heat, or a lack of light. Darkness and cold are not forms of energy. Evil is like that. It could be described as a lack of, or low frequency of divine energy, whereas good could be described as a large amount or high frequency of divine energy. The words good and evil only really point out differences in the same force, they are similar to units of measure, only they are vague and undefined. It doesn't make sense to argue the divinity of evil because it is not itself the force. It's a snapshot. The whole picture has got to be much more structured and dynamic. For a divine god to create a "divine" force, it would have to have higher and lower degrees, and a deeper level of organization in order remain within the laws of the universe. God does not break the laws of the universe.

[The Eagle]

hmmm. i dont think evil is some outside force. i think it is a mental construct. but that also means good is a mental construct and not some outside force too.

as for your light example - why have you associated good being the light? what if the divine and indeed god is associated with darkness - and light is the "evil"

you see by describing it as you have it limits god to a human perspective - darkness you can desribe as lack of light, but that is only because of the way as humans need light to observe things. but not only that - light is impermenant. darkness is the natural state of the universe. so if light is to represent divinity - then we say god is impermenant.

thats why i believe it must all be divine. light/dark, hot,cold, good,evil - all of these things and the negative and positive connotations atached to them are all human perspective. - that is not to say good/evil are not useful concepts - but to allocate one to god and the other not doesnt make sense - unless you have a pre-existing belief or a need for god and therfore divinity to be solely good.

[Eternal Novice]

I'm sorry that I wasn't clear enough. What I probably forgot to say was that any hypothetical creator would have to create evil along with good, assuming that those terms are merely different ways to describe at a single, more dynamic force. By looking at "good" and "evil" in terms of light, heat, and electricity, and the difference between them as changes in frequency, I was trying to show that they are not forces in and of themselves, and that if evil does exist outside of our minds, then our understanding of it is lacking. I had assumed that divinity or a divine figure would be "solely good", but that wasn't essential to the argument. I was trying to show that such a being could create a force like the one I described because breaking good and evil into two different forces would be like breaking up hot and cold, or light and dark, which is functionally impossible, and would break the laws of the universe.

[The Eagle]

I'm sorry that I wasn't clear enough. What I probably forgot to say was that any hypothetical creator would have to create evil along with good, assuming that those terms are merely different ways to describe at a single, more dynamic force. By looking at "good" and "evil" in terms of light, heat, and electricity, and the difference between them as changes in frequency, I was trying to show that they are not forces in and of themselves, and that if evil does exist outside of our minds, then our understanding of it is lacking. I had assumed that divinity or a divine figure would be "solely good", but that wasn't essential to the argument. I was trying to show that such a being could create a force like the one I described because breaking good and evil into two different forces would be like breaking up hot and cold, or light and dark, which is functionally impossible, and would break the laws of the universe.

i get what you are saying - and a creator that creates evil and good is both good and evil - or like we have said good/evil are solely perspectives.

as for heat/light etc - there is one major assumption. that god and therefore good is represented by the force and not observesed by lack of it - so this is essential to the argument. you can easily invert it like i said in my last post. - i.e. if you say you have light and lack of light - thus good and lack of good, you can have lack of light that represents good so light represents lack, of the lack of light. lol.

anyways i dont believe good/evil is an outside force.