Rant and Rave Think Tank 2

[Guardian7347]

On the Trayvon case:
This is an obvious example of media smear intended to make a mountain out of a molehill and stir up racial issues where there were none before. The shooter, Zimmerman, is half-jewish, half-latino. The media portrays him as being white. The pictures they use for both Zimmerman and Martin are even more biased. They use an old mugshot of Zimmerman looking rough and criminal, and a picture of Martin from when he was twelve, fresh-faced, and just as innocent looking as a person can ever get. No bias there, right? Zimmerman was once arrested on some minor charges, but they were dismissed. He was never charged with anything. Trayvon was on suspension from school for the empty drug bag, not that I think that has ANYTHING to do with anything, but it does paint an image different from the one portrayed by MSNBC(Massively Socialistic News Broadcasting Company). I don't know who instigated the fight. I don't know if Z was indeed following the kid with ill-intent or not. The problem is, even if Z was outside his rights to pursue the kid, Tray STILL went too far by hitting his head against the sidewalk multiple times. That's threat of serious bodily harm right there, justifying a shooting. I'm a little disturbed by the whole "was it racially motivated to shoot to kill" comment. Ok, more than a little. Anyone ever had your head bounce off concrete or asphalt in a fight? It's VERY disorienting and that can cause panic if done repeatedly. Props to the guy for staying conscious! How many blows to the back of the head do you think it takes to knock you unconscious? Now imagine it's your head being slammed into the concrete, you're seeing stars, and you're getting tunnel vision...you're about to pass out and you know it. You're scared. You don't know if their going to stop when you pass out, and quite frankly, that's not even a thought in your head. Fight or flight is in full effect ladies and gentlemen! It's do or die at that point. He pulls his gun and probably fired wildly from the hip, because he sure as hell didn't have time to really aim, but his target is on top of him, so you don't HAVE to aim to hit your target. THIS is exactly the sort of scenario for which carry permits are intended. Once all the details are out, we will see what actually transpired, but if the witnesses don't change their story, I'd be hard-pressed to condemn Z of anything more than being over-zealous in his duties as a neighborhood watch and instigating a situation that escalated too far. My fear is that this will turn into more than just about the two men, and Z will be found guilty SOLELY to subdue the masses and not due to any real offense.
FYI, Z wasn't arrested because his head was messed up, his nose broken, and there was clear evidence of the struggle. By florida law, if you shoot for self-defense, then there's no cause to arrest. Mistake? Maybe. I don't know, we'll see I guess.

[Guardian7347]

To me I think the only reason that man followed Trayvon WAS cuz he was black and young, no other reason, is it illegal to walk through that community if under a certain age? if not why was he being stalked by the neighborhood watch guy?

For the sake of fairness, Treyvon WAS leaving a gated community after dark. There are several undertones to this, and a lot of assumptions as well. He WAS just visiting a family member there. Gated communities have a stereotype of being populated by bigotted individuals, also of having a less than balanced population of differing ethnic groups. Seeing a hooded black male leaving such a place by one of it's residents quite possibly WOULD seem suspicious to them, solely out of their own prejudices. That said, whatever the driving force behind the original harassment, T still went over the top when he started bouncing Z's head off the ground. If that fact doesn't change, neither will my opinion.

[aj jailor]

You know, I discussed a similar issue with my father the last time is saw him.
“Is taking the life of a person in the act of self-defense, for lack of a better word, acceptable?”
I don’t think that Zimmerman’s actions should go without consequence. However as Guard so kindly pointed out, he was being attacked, thus complicating the already so obviously complicated matter. In my heart I wish to stand up for the boy, but the circumstances of Z seemingly being attacked first force me to look at the matter through a more detached point of view.
(Anyhow, common sense tells one as to how much of the media will portray the two. Z, looking more or less like a convict and Trayvon an innocent—they do that everywhere.)
Should he be convicted? Maybe. Maybe not. In fact, I have no idea. I know how disorienting such a blow to the head can be, but numerous of them? I can only imagine. Personally, I think something should be done, or its possible—as someone quoted above—that the public will take matters into their own hands. It wouldn’t be a first. I would know.
As possible as it is that this was a racial shooting, it seems to me that many are intentionally trying to make it seem like one. Racism is a somewhat delicate matter that many people are very sensitive over—its often that they mistake an imprudent action as a racist one. I’ve have never really seen where ones race or skin color has truly mattered, but obviously that’s not a widely-shared belief. Anyhow not where I come from.
What I question are the intentions. Why did Trayvon attack him in the first place? Did he realize that he was being followed and thus felt threatened? Was he truly on drugs? Perhaps even just for the thrill? Maybe Z attacked him first?
I'm just discussing the possibilities.

[Guardian7347]

“Is taking the life of a person in the act of self-defense, for lack of a better word, acceptable?”

Biblically speaking(based on some of your past posts, I assume this is what you're alluding to), yes. It's ok to kill in self-defense. It's ok to kill during a battle. The distinction is personal intent. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" more closely translates to "thou shalt not commit premeditated murder". In war, you don't know the name of the men on the other side of the battlefield, nor do you care. No personal intent to kill Jimmy Wilkirk of 123 kittylicker lane, you just shoot "that guy" before he shoots you. Same applies to self-defense.

[aj jailor]

According to the Old Testament, yes. But can you tell me if the New Testament shares those views?

[operatormike]

You are getting into whether or not the act was right, ethical. This is different from whether the act was legal...and whether or not it was acceptable.

Jesus is clear: Love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you. He gave us the ultimate example. So, choosing to kill someone is wrong by that measure.

By law and by standards accepted by most governments/communities killing in self defense is acceptable. However, in Ohio, this act would have been illegal. If someone attacks you or threatens you within your own home or business, it is legal to kill them. But if it is out in public, as this was, it becomes very difficult to prove such a self defense claim.

Florida, however has a law that allows someone to protect themselves, including killing, even in public.

If this went to trial and I were on the jury, my question would be: Did this guy provoke a fight with the kid in order to kill him? Race could very well be an issue if his motivation was to kill the boy in the first place. A half (white)Hispanic-half Jewish man is a white man in my opinion.

On the other hand, if the kid attacked this man unprovoked and the man in the heat of the moment shot him out of fear for his life, it is a different case.

I am not so sure that he needed to aim for his torso in order to stop the alleged attack. If he is trained properly, at close range he could have easily chose a less vital target.

We may never know these answers. Without the facts our discussion could go in circles for a long time.

Peace,
OM

[Guardian7347]

According to the Old Testament, yes. But can you tell me if the New Testament shares those views?

Nothing in Christ's teachings ran contrary to the Ten commandments. I don't recall any scripture where he says to disregard the commandments either. He didn't change any fundamental rules, he simply freed the people from having to use animal sacrifice, opened up the gates to heaven for all people, and started the twelve off with his message of redemption. If you have any information that appears to indicate otherwise, by all means share, I'm not so bold as to believe I have all the answers.

[aj jailor]

Nor am I- that's why I'm asking. I would love to be able to answer all my questions on what is ethical and what isn't. The why's, the what's, the how's . . . they all haunt like my own shadow. Perhaps I'm to plagued with these questions to take notice of the bigger picture, or perhaps its the bigger picture that makes take notice of these questions. I am open to advice and thoeries, so feel free to advise.

[SharA2]

The media is definitely making this a white against black case, even with the images of each person involved-- I have seen nicer images of Zimmerman in a suit and smiling but those of course were not menacing enough( like his 2005 mugshot) to post when the case broke, in the same thought the ones of Trayvon were more innocent older images of him. Same as the media saying Zimmerman is a "White Hispanic" that is to send the same message. The bias in this case was overwhelming in the beginning, a lot of the facts took a long time to filter/leak out. Not so one-sided as all first believed.

I still think that if Zimmerman had of left Trayvon alone and allowed him to walk to wherever he was going and did not create an unneeded encounter this shooting and death would not have happened, perhaps their was previous crimes in that community and people were already on alert, perhaps the neighborhood watch man ( Zimmerman) wanted to be a hero within his community by stopping whatever crime he assumed was about to happen--even though it appears none was ever to happen if he had not followed the boy. The missing fact is what was said to make Trayvon lash out and hit Zimmerman, was he baiting the kid with words to incite a violent reaction, or did Trayvon feel threatened or merely angry and acted out on his own.

This is the reason why Zimmerman was not arrested, Bubbydoll.

Zimmerman has not been arrested because he told police he acted in self-defense, and then-Chief Lee said police did not have probable cause. Florida Statute 776.032 expressly prohibits police from arresting someone who had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. Police may investigate, the statute says, "but the agency may not arrest the person" without probable cause.

What do others think about the bounty put out on Zimmerman for $10,000, by the New Black Panthers, to shake him out of hiding?

[operatormike]

What do others think about the bounty put out on Zimmerman for $10,000, by the New Black Panthers, to shake him out of hiding?

This shows that the New Black Panthers clearly believe that this act was racially motivated. Whether that is true or not is another consideration, as this thread shows.

@ Guardian and AJ

Nothing in Christ's teachings ran contrary to the Ten commandments. I don't recall any scripture where he says to disregard the commandments either. He didn't change any fundamental rules...

I agree that Jesus did not contradict the Ten Commandments or the "Law" ( the Old Testament and associated scriptures)...rather he expanded on it.

For instance he said:
You have heard it said: You shall love your countryman and hate your enemy but I say Love your enemy, do good to those who do you harm, pray for those who persecute you. ( He never said stop loving your countryman)

Jesus was taking a concept of an ideal society that is attributed to Moses...and expanding it from just one nation to the entire world. That line You shall love your countryman is from Deutoronomy. The second part ...hate your enemy, although never written was clearly understood by the Israelites. They were to be uber kind to each other, but go and wipe out every soul of cities and nations that were in the way of their conquest. Moses was very pissed one time when the warriors returned from ravaging a city and brought back women. He wanted them to be killed too. (this is in Exodus, I think)...anyway he decided that they could have the women if they were virgins. Mothers and their children had to be killed in order to wipe out the possibility of them raising their foreign children to hate their captors, which would (and did) cause problems later.

There is also the Law of Talion (or retaliation) where an eye could be taken for an eye, a life could be taken for a life. This law, which I am pretty sure Moses wrote in their somewhere, was a concept that originated in ancient Sumeria...The idea was to actually cut down on violence and warfare. Before that law, if someone kills your brother, you go wipe out their entire family and the horses they rode in on...according to this law, you now only can choose one of their family to kill.

Jesus said You have heard it said an eye could be taken for an eye I say to you if a man strike you on one cheek, turn and give him the other. If he presses you into labor for one mile, go two...and so on.

So, the law helps guide us, but Jesus was teaching about a higher law within us that we are to follow.

Peace,
OM

[KRSTYSTLCLR]

Evidently, the first investigator on the scene also believed the shooting was outside of the law. There is a report from the police department that claims mr. zimmerman " was arrested for HOMICIDE-NEGLIG, MANSL-UNNECESSARYKILLING TO PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT. Reported by Officer Ricardo Ayala

I think that the way the Florida law is written, the teen having been the first to feel fear and possibly for his life because the idiot zimmerman was following him around (against police or 911 orders BTW) was somewhat justified if he did confront zimmerman physically. So In my way of seeing things, zimmerman should have to face trial and let the facts of the case be vetted out before a judge as they should be and not in the media.

[Guardian7347]

Evidently, the first investigator on the scene also believed the shooting was outside of the law. There is a report from the police department that claims mr. zimmerman " was arrested for HOMICIDE-NEGLIG, MANSL-UNNECESSARYKILLING TO PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT. Reported by Officer Ricardo Ayala

I think that the way the Florida law is written, the teen having been the first to feel fear and possibly for his life because the idiot zimmerman was following him around (against police or 911 orders BTW) was somewhat justified if he did confront zimmerman physically. So In my way of seeing things, zimmerman should have to face trial and let the facts of the case be vetted out before a judge as they should be and not in the media.

Careful KRSTY, you're making assumptions about how people felt. We don't KNOW that the teen felt fear ever! In fact, according to his gf, he was SOOO terrified he didn't run anywhere. He walked. As for zimmerman's arrest....show me something, because last time I checked, everyone is up in arms because he WASN'T arrested. One officer WANTED him arrested, but there wasn't any just cause to arrest him.

[KRSTYSTLCLR]

@Guardian,
If you can give me instructions on how to upload a sumatra pdf to this site, then I would be glad to.
I guess you havent seen the video released today by the police department with zimmerman in handcuffs being escorted out of a police car at the Sanford station.

There is a difference between being arrested and being formally charged. Any arrest has acompanying reports.

Im typing this on my phone so please excuse any spelling mistakes.

I think with the kid being dead that zimmerman could say whatever he wants. Also from the perspective of someone with quite a bit of knowledge about street fights, I doubt the kid bashed his head multiple times into the ground because zimmerman would have some kind of marks from it. Head wounds bleed profusly. In the police video there is no obvious gashes or wounds to support zimmermans claim. If photos do leak out in the future I would still question zimmermans claims because of his prior actions. He was told to back off. I may not necessarily run if someone was following me around an area that was familiar to me either. People always say that a "reasonable person" would run, but that is not necessarily true either. It depends an the individual and their life experiences.

[JeremyM]

Hello Bubby and fans,

This is an interesting case, to say the least. I don't have all of the evidence, so I can't really make a judgement. I have heard that Zimmerman had a concealed carry license, to answer one of the questions. It seems like vigilantism is going on here though. Like he was 'gunning' for trouble. Following this kid around. To some extent, he provoked the fight, but slamming someones head on the sidewalk is attempted murder, regardless of your race. So, it is hard for me to judge. Is racism involved? I would say at least a little, if not a lot. If a white boy the same age were walking around, would Zimmerman have called the police because he looked suspicious??? Would he have followed him around and provoked a fight??? (with Zimmerman holding a concealed loaded gun?)
Now here is where it is hard to judge. Let's say the boy was white and everything happened just the same. I think Zimmerman would still have shot the boy. However, he clearly shot to kill. Did he do so out of racial hatred? If so, would he have shot to kill a white boy? or would he have shot him in a less vital area to stop him. We may never know, but therein lies the possibility of racism. It could almost be like a modern day lynching. I could see that, but on the other hand, it might not be.

If you read some of my posts when LeBron left Cleveland, you know I am not to happy with him. However, LeBron very recently posted a photo of his new team, the Miami Heat, all dressed in hoodies with their heads hung low in mourning for Trayvon Martin. I thought that was truly classy. Maybe he is learning a little about honor in his old age.

It still seems like George Zimmerman should have been held for questioning at the very least. Some are asking for the Police Chief's termination. I don't know. Maybe that would be justice also.

Peace,
OM

Hey, Mike you found it. I agree on your comment about vigilantism, he got overzealous.

Why did he even call 911, if he was not going to follow their advice, you could hear him in pursuit and he wouldn't give the dispatcher a location[house number] for his current location and wanted them to call him back instead because he was following the kid and would not have an address he'd be in front of[ too busy chasing that kid down ]

Did you hear the 911 calls? They want to determine who it was that was screaming for help, to me it sounded like it was Zimmerman, that is the thing they need to determine right now. Here is a youtube link to about 40 minutes worth of the 911 calls that were logged on that incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&feature=related&v=cHMRwmGlKs8

It still seems like George Zimmerman should have been held for questioning at the very least. Some are asking for the Police Chief's termination.

Wasn't it the State's Attorney who gave the final say so?

A related story- if Zimmerman gets charged the homeowners could be liable too:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-29/business/os-trayvon-martin-hoa-20120329_1_cyber-citizens-homeowner-crime-watch-members

[JeremyM]

@Guardian,
If you can give me instructions on how to upload a sumatra pdf to this site, then I would be glad to.
I guess you havent seen the video released today by the police department with zimmerman in handcuffs being escorted out of a police car at the Sanford station.

There is a difference between being arrested and being formally charged. Any arrest has acompanying reports.

Im typing this on my phone so please excuse any spelling mistakes.

I think with the kid being dead that zimmerman could say whatever he wants. Also from the perspective of someone with quite a bit of knowledge about street fights, I doubt the kid bashed his head multiple times into the ground because zimmerman would have some kind of marks from it. Head wounds bleed profusly. In the police video there is no obvious gashes or wounds to support zimmermans claim. If photos do leak out in the future I would still question zimmermans claims because of his prior actions. He was told to back off. I may not necessarily run if someone was following me around an area that was familiar to me either. People always say that a "reasonable person" would run, but that is not necessarily true either. It depends an the individual and their life experiences.

Is this the stuff you wanted posted, Krsty?

This link has the police station video of that night when they [supposedly] led Zimmerman to the station in cuffs.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-29/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-video-20120328_1_video-doesn-t-show-shooting-security-cameras

Anyone else find it odd how empty that whole area is inside and out, never seen a police station that empty before especially with something big like that having just gone down.

This should be the other thing you mentioned too:
http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-03/69081607-29132322.pdf

@ Shara- I am sure the police know exactly where Zimmerman is and I wouldn't be surprised if he is in some sort of protective custody. TNBP's want more blood, that is all, not so much justice. 2c.

[KRSTYSTLCLR]

Yeah,Jeremy, those are great. Funny how you always end up posting what I can't..lol

There is a few other things that I wanted to bring up. One being what ever happened to using equal or lesser force? I guess the Stand Your Ground Law in Florida just throws that one out the window.

Also, I have heard that Zimmerman is very depressed and has been crying for days. Do you think he's crying for the kid or for himself? How do you think he feels now, knowing that the kid he killed was so sinister that he carries skittles and Arizona ice tea. He killed a kid for his own insecurities and overzealous activities. I hope that society can learn something from this.

[Brake4Wind]

I think we are on a similar track Krsty. I have a real problem with laws that do not take every case of deadly force very seriously. Of course we have a right to self defense but this law makes it too easy for a fight to turn deadly when fights happen all the time and are not self defense. Besides that- what teen age boy isn't a 'usual suspect'? They are awkward, dress 'different' often doing something annoying. I can remember being 17 and the boys were worse than me! Heck, someone threw eggs at my garage door the other night- I didn't see who but who do I suspect?- the teen boys next door. Duh! But does that make them dangerous or that bad? No, but if I catch the brats, I'll tell their mother- she will collar them!

I've always thought Zimmerman's claim of self defense was at least questionable. After seeing the videos of his being taken in for questioning, I have more doubts. He claimed to have a broken nose but there was no blood on his shirt- no signs of any lacerations at the back of his head. Not that I think he should be tried in the media but I think the federal Justice Dept. should investigate before this gets out of control; it's gone too far already (IMO).

All we really know is that Zimmerman was in pursuit when he called police and, he shot an unarmed teen that was visiting his father in this gated community. Zimmerman claims he stopped pursuit and the teen approached/ attacked him but it's equally plausible that Zimmerman approached the teen and started the fight. In that case the teen had a right to self defense- using deadly force under this law- same defense as Zimmerman; in fact a better claim of self defense since Zimmerman was armed. I'd sure bet that if the teen killed Zimmerman claiming self-defense there would be an investigation. Not that I think there shouldn't be but equal protection under the law runs both ways. Except perhaps under this "Stand your Ground" law- (IMO) it encourages vigilantism, excessive force, even murder.
Previous incidents with racial issues in the city of Sanford
News reports noted that the police department of the city of Sanford has faced previous allegations of racial prejudice. In 2011, chief of police Brian Tooley was forced from office after declining to prosecute a police lieutenant's son for beating up a homeless black man, in an incident caught on video. After the footage went viral on YouTube, the perpetrator, Justin Collison, was arrested. The officer in charge of that case was also in charge of the Trayvon Martin shooting scene. In 2005, two parking lot security guards, one the son of a Sanford police department veteran and the other a volunteer for the department, shot a black teen, Travares McGill, in the back, killing him. The guards asserted self-defense, and the case was dismissed in court.

This is what I'm talking about and I find it disgusting. (Zimmerman's father is an ex-judge BTW).

@ Jeremy- I didn't know what you meant at first but yes, the new black panthers do want blood. It's an equal and opposite of the 'white power' or neo-nazi types- equally as bad. Another fine mess if any of these groups start to avail themselves of this 'stand you ground' law.

[KRSTYSTLCLR]

Good info B4W and thanks for the links Jerremy. I noticed today that the media seemed to back off some of the speculation today. Maybe having some vid leaked and a few eyewitness interviews sated them for a while. It helped me understand things better too.

[Jeff_in_Time]

I have to re spam this thread on stuff I missed >.> I'll comment on the Trayvon case now.

Something stinks about this case.
Facts are leaked, stories, even polices are changing, they need to sort this shit out and then discuss it.
I read Zimmerman had a broken bloody nose, cuts on back of his head and grass stains on him from where Trayvon pounded him, then he was shot.
Also heard Trayvon tried to go for Zimmerman's gun too, when he had him down.
I am holding off on judgement until all the facts are told. But makes ya wonder why Trayvon fought Zimmerman.
And why would the police ever lie for Zimmerman, not like they are covering for another cop, which happens a lot.

[Jeff_in_Time]

Yes, Cap got it right. I dont know how to write to the 2nd power on here either, I do on word.

@B4W
I love math, I can help anytime.

@Jeff
I can walk away easier than before. Once that angry gets hold of me it hard for me to do anything but focus on my breathing. Most of the time I can say something not rudely either but when they dont respond or just brush it off or give my lip, I lose it. I pretty ok if I am just yelling but when I go silence or you see tears, it's over. If I can tell I really not going like this person, I relied on my intuition, you just get that feeling something is about to happen, I need to leave then. I ignore it sometimes because I like to give others the benefit of the doubt, but I should listen to my intuition more. The problem I have now is when I walk away I will obsess over it for days and I will eventually start to vomit like I just have to get this out of me...I used to have a punching bag I used to get my angry out, it wasnt good enough, now I have a thick board I hit, It takes the skin off and makes my knuckles bloody sometimes or my hands really swollen but the pain of it will redirect my focus. I actually hate pain and blood, and when I am not mad I cant handle other ppl or animals in pain or suffering it makes me physically sick and I faint at the sight of blood. When I used to get in fight I could get over my anger faster, but I also hurt ppl pretty bad sometimes like I said I blackout and I guess I wouldnt quit when I fight, I got my ass kick too sometimes but I cant feel anything until hours later.

Some others things I do to get my mind off it, I will throw myself in music...I write and mix music. I wont listen to anything that will make me angry, but I might play/write music myself that is more fast and slowly drop the tempo until it is calm but it takes days to do. I am a mood person and the moods of others or the environment around affects me a lot. So, I have to watch how much negative behavior I am around, when I start to feel irritable it is probably because I been around a lot negative behavior (like constant complaining) and I am at my limit for the month, so I need to removed myself from that environment for a week or so. I've gotten into a pushing matches with ppl, I still throw things or I will slightly hit someone, but I havent got into a fight or actually punch someone in over 2 years so, yeah it is a lot better. Also when I am getting to know someone and they kinda clash with me (personality wise), I only spend like 10mins with them at a time or so until I can find stuff I do like about them (there is good and bad things about all of us) and then I can focus on that, once I get to know ppl it is a lot easier to control my emotions even if I dont like them.

Answering ya now Delayed but answering.
So you lose it because you think they don't take ya serious or because you think they are disrespecting you?
Last one I hate too, if someone doesn't take your words seriously. WTF, you say things because you mean them.
I say listen to your intuition too, it is there to guide you.
You shouldn't internalize it though, or physically hurt yourself either, that is giving whoever some of your power.

I use music the same way, it really does work the best for me too. I listen to or play rock and metal when upset.
Do you come up with better writing & music when you are in that state of mind?
Are ya a empath? Could be why you internalize too.
Least now you know your limits and you are doing right by YOU now, some people don't ever figure that out.
I broke some fingers punching a wall once, DAMN! lesson learned by me.

[Guardian7347]

...what ever happened to using equal or lesser force? I guess the Stand Your Ground Law in Florida just throws that one out the window.

Again, we don't know the exact circumstances, but if his head was beat against the ground, he USED equal force. People who use lesser force to protect themselves end up in garbage bags in abandoned, over-grown lots.

Also, I have heard that Zimmerman is very depressed and has been crying for days. Do you think he's crying for the kid or for himself? How do you think he feels now, knowing that the kid he killed was so sinister that he carries skittles and Arizona ice tea. He killed a kid for his own insecurities and overzealous activities.

Wow! No rush to judgment there. Most people cry when they have to take a human life. Do you think Mr. Zimmerman such a monster that he should be an exception? This man hasn't even been charged with a crime and you've placed him on par with Bundy and Manson. You've determined his motives without speaking to him. You've already tried and convicted this man, as have so many other people who know only what the media have spoon fed you. The same media that intentionally used old pictures of the two characters to make one appear as a doe-eyed child and the other as a hardened criminal. We don't know these people and I for one won't assume his guilt until I see some solid evidence. God help this man if it actually goes to trial. He'll be executed before the first witness takes the stand.
So many people are just so eager to assume the worst about this man that they ignore certain details in favor of making stuff up to fit the theory of the racist gun guy. Eye witness says Treyvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him and yet people still claim HE was the one calling for help. Not very likely. Treyvon started the fight. If Zimmerman had started the fight, treyvon never would have gotten the upper hand on him. There was just too large of a weight disparity between the two men. Zimmerman wasn't looking for a fight. If he was, he wouldn't have called 911 to tell them what he was up to. Zimmerman DID overstep his bounds, and he should have backed off like he was told to do, but that doesn't make him a racist, cold-blooded killer. I think you did get that part right. He was overzealous. This is a prime example of little mistakes piling up to disasterous results, and now a young man is dead. But mistakes were made on both sides. Let's stop the rush to judgment.

[Jeff_in_Time]

Hey, Guardian.
I agree with Zimmerman wasn't lookin to kill anyone that night, doing his neighborhood watch job, was he being racist, who knows.
A good portion of the US is still racist so he wouldn't be alone in doing so if he was.
He gave 911 his name, number and house address too, they got all his info. He didn't run after he shot Trayvon either.
Peeps need to wait out all the facts. Hate to say it but I think Zimmerman will be gangland slain soon.
If I was this dude I'd be worried for my safety right now.

[KRSTYSTLCLR]

@ Guardian, I dont think I made a single comment about race, so please dont attribute something to me that shouldnt be. Maybe I hit a wrong cord with you with the comment about Z crying for himself or the kid, but I was seriously asking that question. It is a valid question to wonder about. Considering the situation and Z in hindsite knowing that a kid who more than likely (going by the known facts) was not up to anything at all is dead. Do you think his sorrow is more for himself and all the controversy that he is surrounded by. Or more for the fact that he took a life and a kid that only had skittles and tea on him will never enjoy the triumps and obstacles of life again and the family that is left behind. Maybe all these things are going through his head. Maybe none of it.
Btw one of my sons was assaulted about 2 weeks ago by gangmembers and the one punching him in the face had brass knuckels on. Another guy hit him double fisted on the back of the neck/upper back. My son is 5'9 and all of 122 lbs. This was a drive by, slam on the brakes, jump on the victim(my son) do as much damage as possible and run situation. My son never lost his footing or consciousness. Sure his face was messed up and sure he probably wanted to kill the little fuckers so did I and the rest of the family, but that is not how we do things here. This is not the gd wild west and the kid Treyvon did not have to die. Whether the Florida law is right or wrong I could give a shit about. The issue is about the actions of a neighborhood watch man who went to far and the loss of a worthwile young life.

[Guardian7347]

@ Guardian, I dont think I made a single comment about race, so please dont attribute something to me that shouldnt be. Maybe I hit a wrong cord with you with the comment about Z crying for himself or the kid, but I was seriously asking that question. It is a valid question to wonder about. Considering the situation and Z in hindsite knowing that a kid who more than likely (going by the known facts) was not up to anything at all is dead. Do you think his sorrow is more for himself and all the controversy that he is surrounded by. Or more for the fact that he took a life and a kid that only had skittles and tea on him will never enjoy the triumps and obstacles of life again and the family that is left behind. Maybe all these things are going through his head. Maybe none of it.
Btw one of my sons was assaulted about 2 weeks ago by gangmembers and the one punching him in the face had brass knuckels on. Another guy hit him double fisted on the back of the neck/upper back. My son is 5'9 and all of 122 lbs. This was a drive by, slam on the brakes, jump on the victim(my son) do as much damage as possible and run situation. My son never lost his footing or consciousness. Sure his face was messed up and sure he probably wanted to kill the little fuckers so did I and the rest of the family, but that is not how we do things here. This is not the gd wild west and the kid Treyvon did not have to die. Whether the Florida law is right or wrong I could give a shit about. The issue is about the actions of a neighborhood watch man who went to far and the loss of a worthwile young life.

Perhaps I should have taken the extra step to clarify, but the last paragraph wasn't intended to be directed at you per se. It was more for the general audience. The populace in general has taken on the battle cry of the media in screaming racism on this.
There is no doubt in my mind that Mr. Zimmerman has spent very little time thinking about anything OTHER than the life he cut short, and he'll continue to think about it long after the media has found another story to follow. WE don't know if treyvon deserved to die or not. The only two who could answer that question are Z and tray, because they are the only two who were there. I'm telling you now, if you're on the ground getting pummelled, it's an easy thing to think you're life may be in danger. It's very easy to sit back in the comfort of your home and second guess what was going through someone else's mind at the time too. Z may well have made a mistake. I don't know, and neither does anyone other than him and God. Let him face trial if he must, but let the man be innocent until proven guilty instead of vice versa.

[jojo]

And, (on a somewhat unrelated note) what about the Canadian government legalizing brothels and pimping Ontario? Am I the only one wondering what is becoming of our legal systems today?

If you link me the article, I will read it and discuss it with you. I wrote in this thread near the beginning that women have a right to do what they want with their bodies and I think legalizing prostitution is the right idea. What is happening in Ont.?

Very duly noted- you have a point. (I'm going to have to search for the link.) And yes, women do have that "right", however personally I find prostitution disgusting on all counts, and I cannot bring myself to support such issues no matter wha supposed "right" women have been given. (personally I prefer to say that their freedom of mind and body is a gift, and I feel that they should value that gift)

True, what they do is -anyhow I assume it is- their choice, and I won't condemn them for it, but in no way can I bring myself to support anyone that permits, if not defends, such practices. Of course, thats just my lowly view on the matter, but I would love to hear yours.

Tsk, aj.

I was all up for coming back on and chatting you up over what you posted but you never included the links I needed to get up to date on your topic. I'll let you try again

Why do you find prostitution disgusting, that is a strong reaction to have? These women are using what god gave to make a living, of course they could do jobs seen as less taboo by society, but it is their right to do it, if they are legal age and not being forced by another party.

Is it because they are fucking men for money that makes it disgusting to you, is it for religious reasons? Your own moral beliefs? You have the right to be turned off by it, lots of strip clubs in cities are being shut down because people feel the same way and how it looks within a community.

[jojo]

To me I think the only reason that man followed Trayvon WAS cuz he was black and young, no other reason, is it illegal to walk through that community if under a certain age? if not why was he being stalked by the neighborhood watch guy?

For the sake of fairness, Treyvon WAS leaving a gated community after dark. There are several undertones to this, and a lot of assumptions as well. He WAS just visiting a family member there. Gated communities have a stereotype of being populated by bigotted individuals, also of having a less than balanced population of differing ethnic groups. Seeing a hooded black male leaving such a place by one of it's residents quite possibly WOULD seem suspicious to them, solely out of their own prejudices. That said, whatever the driving force behind the original harassment, T still went over the top when he started bouncing Z's head off the ground. If that fact doesn't change, neither will my opinion.

You took my name off the quote? Did this happen inside the gated community? Was visiting his father, I think? All the stuff regarding this is beginning to blur into a big mess of facts , lies and media hype.

Was this a wealthy area? Zimmerman is Hispanic and living there, and Trayvon's relatives are of color and living inside that gated community too, so not all one color residing. I am sure the community kids all wear hoodies too, was it cold out that night? why was his hood up. Maybe Trayvon attacked Zimmerman cuz he was sick of racial profiling and had enough and went off that night. Was he a kid with any history of fighting?

I saw that vid leaked that Jeremy posted and people saying look at Zimmerman's head and nose, looks alright. But like Jeremy said, vid looks sketchy. Too quiet, was NOT after that incident, Zimmerman was too calm, he would still have been distressed after shooting someone. Is it possible that vid was shot weeks after? Not night of.

[JeremyM]

Yeah,Jeremy, those are great. Funny how you always end up posting what I can't..lol

There is a few other things that I wanted to bring up. One being what ever happened to using equal or lesser force? I guess the Stand Your Ground Law in Florida just throws that one out the window.

Also, I have heard that Zimmerman is very depressed and has been crying for days. Do you think he's crying for the kid or for himself? How do you think he feels now, knowing that the kid he killed was so sinister that he carries skittles and Arizona ice tea. He killed a kid for his own insecurities and overzealous activities. I hope that society can learn something from this.

It seems that way doesn't it, I'm happy to do it. That Stand Your Ground Law is what will probably get him off.

I think both sides are rep'ing their loved ones as more innocent than either parties are in actuality. The truth is not coming out in this case yet, IMO. I think he is scared for himself, and so the dude should be, there is a bounty out on him and the nations eyes are on him, including the president's.

They said when doing a voice recognition test that it wasn't his voice screaming for help- but what I heard sounded more like Zimmerman to me over the killed teen.

Read this:

The Trayvon Martin case has generated hundreds of news accounts, scores of speeches, millions of online messages, discussions and tweets — and a good bit of misinformation. Here are some of the recurring items:

Trayvon was trying to defend himself against a man who outweighed him by 100 pounds.

Outweighed, yes. By 100 pounds, no. George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who says he killed Trayvon in self-defense, outweighed him by 30 or 40 pounds, according to family members. A Sanford police incident report says Trayvon was 6 feet tall and weighed 160 pounds. A spokesman for the family's lawyers gave a slightly different set of numbers: 6 feet 1 and 150 pounds. Zimmerman is 5 feet 9 inches tall, according to the police report, but it is silent about his weight. A family member says he currently weighs about 190 pounds. Zimmerman used to be far heavier. A 2005 police report put his weight at 250 pounds, but security-camera video released last week by Sanford police show him to be much trimmer.

The U.S. Department of Justice is conducting a broad investigation into civil-rights abuses by the Sanford Police Department in the Trayvon Martin case and for years of past abuse.

Not so. Since Trayvon's death Feb. 26, the NAACP and others have alleged widespread and long-standing civil-rights abuses by the department and asked for a broad investigation. But last week, DOJ spokeswoman Xochitl Hinojosa and FBI spokesman Dave Couvertier told the Los Angeles Times that there's only one civil-rights investigation under way: whether Zimmerman violated Trayvon's rights when he shot him.

Trayvon had no business walking through the gated community where he was shot and should not have been out at 3 a.m.

Trayvon was where he was supposed to be. He and his father were visiting his father's fiancée, who lives in the gated community. Trayvon had walked to a 7-Eleven and was returning to her townhouse shortly after 7:15 p.m. when he was shot. He was not out at 3 a.m.

The reason George Zimmerman was not arrested is because his father is a former judge who pulled some strings.

Zimmerman's father, 64-year-old Robert Zimmerman of Lake Mary, is a retired magistrate from Virginia. He told WOFL-Channel 35 last week that no one involved in the investigation knew about his former job, and he didn't tell them. Magistrates in Virginia are not full-blown judges. They used to be called justices of the peace. They have limited authority and conduct no trials. Some are not lawyers. They typically issue arrest warrants, search warrants and set bail.

Trayvon Martin was shot in the back of the head.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson got that wrong at a rally in Eatonville on March 25. Trayvon was shot once in the chest at close range.

[St. Dymphna]

I wonder what Dorn looks like. Anyone want to draw funny pictures and make fun of him?

[misha666]

Greeny ur still here? I thought u were baned from here!

Anyway, i kinda wanna talk about Food.
Yes people food!
It makes me sick how much food all the restaurants throw away every night?
Especially the fast food restaurants. Theres so much hunger in this country alone and
were always throwing food away. The other day i went to dunkin donuts to get some coffee
and the guy there gave me some dounut because they were going to throw them away.
Another day i went to another dunkin donuts near by and the guy there also offered me some dounuts, when i got to talking to him
i asked him about throwing food away and why didn't they just give it to the soup kitchens?
This got me thinking and i asked around. KFC, Popeyes, Wendys, McD's, Fridays, Olive Garden etc:
they throw all their food away at the end of the day and don't let the employees take it home.
What are your thought on this people?

[Guardian7347]

I'm far from being an expert on this, but what I've heard from some groups is that they don't give the food away to soup kitchens due to risk of lawsuits should someone end up with food poisoning. I know this is the reason for my military unit not donating food. I find it rather disgusting that we, as a nation, have become so lawsuit-happy that this is what we are reduced to.

[Jeff_in_Time]

Anyway, i kinda wanna talk about Food.
Yes people food!
It makes me sick how much food all the restaurants throw away every night?
Especially the fast food restaurants. Theres so much hunger in this country alone and
were always throwing food away. The other day i went to dunkin donuts to get some coffee
and the guy there gave me some dounut because they were going to throw them away.
Another day i went to another dunkin donuts near by and the guy there also offered me some dounuts, when i got to talking to him
i asked him about throwing food away and why didn't they just give it to the soup kitchens?
This got me thinking and i asked around. KFC, Popeyes, Wendys, McD's, Fridays, Olive Garden etc:
they throw all their food away at the end of the day and don't let the employees take it home.
What are your thought on this people?

I hear ya, Mish. I don't get that either.
Homeless eat out of the garbage for fooks sake, they already vomit and have the shits what do they care about food poisoning.
Least of their worries, they are hungry, give that extra food over to them.
I am positive lots of smaller independent places do give spares away, you don't always hear about it.

[Jeff_in_Time]

@ the trayvon topic, I am waiting for more solid info to come out now.
Since I am bored how about we all post our best Intellectual jokes? lmao

One day Jesus is walking along the shores of lake Galilee when he says, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like 3x2 + 8x - 9." A man who had just joined the disciples looked very confused and asked Peter: "What, on Earth, does he mean by that?" Peter replied: "Don't worry - it's just another one of his parabolas."
>.>

[JeremyM]

@ Misha- I think what Guardian said is right, scared of being sued and losing their businesses/restaurants.

Have you ever asked any of the businesses you listed why they personally don't donate leftovers? If I see a homeless guy on the street and I am near a place with take out, I will drop him some food when I leave and some cash. That could easily be me one day, got to count those blessings by giving back as my Ma (lolz) always says.

@ Jeff- This one isn't that intellectual but here it is:
A neutron walks into a bar. "I'd like a beer" he says.

The bartender promptly serves up a beer.

"How much will that be?" asks the neutron.

"For you?" replies the bartender, "no charge"


Tsetse this is your forte and you won the funniest poster contest, you have to have a good joke.

[KRSTYSTLCLR]

Hello people
Its almost Sunday here in Cali. Where have you all gone? Bubby and Jojo and Guardian and PK and Trop and Jeremy and B4W and Shara and all other RRTT2 posterz...where did you all disappear to ?

[JeremyM]

Hey, hun, where'd you go?
I've been still posting in here, for the rest- some are on forums, just not posting here and the others might be on Easter vacation breaks? Jeff was on recently.

Think we need a new topic, let me look around.

[JeremyM]

Here is one for you, Guardian and others to weigh in on- Guardian being our resident military guy.

A Marine who criticized Obama on Facebook has had a Marine corps panel review board call for his dismissal with a a less than honorable discharge. I think that is ridiculous, what happened to freedom of speech? Not all military personnel love the President but they all love their country. Cut the guy some slack, IMO.

Here is the story:

SAN DIEGO (Reuters) - A Marine who posted on Facebook that he would not follow orders from President Barack Obama should be dismissed from the military with a less-than-honorable discharge, a Marine Corps review board ruled.

Gary Stein, 26, did not comment on the ruling issued late Thursday, one day after his lawyers unsuccessfully sought to delay the review board by seeking an injunction in federal court in San Diego.

The Marines' recommendation to administratively discharge Stein came after a 13-hour hearing and an hour of deliberation by the panel. It will be submitted to Brigadier General Daniel Yoo, the commanding general of the Marine Corps Recruiting Depot, where Stein is stationed.

Yoo has not said what action he plans to take, if any. He is expected to make a decision within 30 days, according to Major Mike Armistead, a Marine Corps spokesman.

Any discharge from the military that is not honorable can mean the loss of benefits available to most U.S. military veterans.

Stein, who is a meteorologist at Camp Pendleton, served nearly nine years, including a tour of duty in Iraq. He was due to either re-enlist or end his enlistment at the end of July, according to court documents.

Stein had posted comments saying he would refuse to obey orders from the president, who is the commander-in-chief of the military, on a Facebook page called the Armed Forces Tea Party page.

He later removed the comments and said he meant only unlawful orders. In 2010, he got in similar trouble with the Marine Corps and was advised to post a disclaimer that the Armed Forces Tea Party is not affiliated with the Armed Forces.

He also posted comments to a Facebook network called METOC, which is limited to active duty meteorologists and oceanographers, where he described Obama as an enemy to America. Those comments were the basis for some of the allegations reviewed by the board.

Marines and all other military members swear an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States as well as to follow the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which restricts political activities while in uniform. Off-duty, out-of-uniform actions are far less restricted, but there are limits.

A coalition of attorneys support Stein, saying in a written statement that the First Amendment guarantees his freedom of speech.

Thoughts anyone?

[Shenanigans]

I have many friends who are a part of the military and they say things arent usually the way most people think it is. Many of those said friends are now out of the military and now talk freely about things they didnt agree with during there enlistment. The idea that sure this man has his rights to say what he wants, but when it comes down to the government things tend to be hushed up quickly. This story reminds me of another about a man returning from a tour of duty in afganistan where he saved a mans life in his platoon but was injured in the process. When returning to the United States he was given a medal for what he had done but couldnt go to the banquet to recieve said give because he was in the hospital for his injuries. The government contacted him and said he would have to pay his shipping and handling to get his medal. This upset me so I wrote the wounded veteran thanking him for his service and sent him 20 bucks to cover his shipping and handling. I have poor feelings towards are government, and the fact that there trying to get rid of this man does not surprise me, but I wish the man luck and support his freedom of speech.

[JeremyM]

Thanks, for commenting.

Yeah, I hear you, I feel the same. The gov't watches every god damned thing we all say, and if anyone spouts off negatively about the president they probably go on a watch list that gets investigated completely. His only mistake was being honest.

When you sign up- enlist, are you made to sign something that says you cannot speak poorly of the president? if not this marine should be allowed to express himself without any repercussions.

Man, that story you told about the wounded soldier is low, that they wouldn't just send it to him. All nickle and dimes. Nice what you did for him, not too many would even consider doing that, I'm sure the guy was grateful.

[Shenanigans]

Ya I will have to ask some close friends that enlisted what all they swore to. Perhaps saying something about the president fits into bad mouthing the country who knows. Perhaps someone else has better knowledge on here that could inform us on this matter. I can see where the government is coming from playing the devils advocate. There seems to be to many "fine" lines with what you can say or do nowadays. Yes I recieved a letter from the veteran that said thankyou tho my small gesture wasnt any match for what he had done for us all.

[Guardian7347]

SGT Stein. I've been loosely following his story. That article Jeremy, like many of them, is badly slanted against the marine. I'm not saying you're slanted against him, just the writer of the article. This is just one more example of the medias increased attack against anyone who speaks out against obie. Anyway. Basic gist, marine is in a chat board discussing NATO wanting to put the poor kid who unknowingly burned the Qurans on trial. marine says something to the effect that he wouldn't follow any order from the president to disarm or detain a US citizen. While he didn't elaborate initially, he didn't feel he had too. It's understood that we are obligated to NOT follow illegal orders, and disarming and detaining US citizens is seen as a violation of their constitutional rights. Here is the oath of the enlisted soldier:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

As such, we are sworn to uphold AND DEFEND the CONSTITUTION of the United States, and to bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution. This is the very core of our oath. This is our responsibility. Who do we defend it from? Against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. This implies that it must be defended against those who would destroy it from the inside, as well as those who would destroy us from the outside. After this, our primary responsibility, we are also tasked to follow the orders of the POTUS and the officers appointed over us....so long as they are within regulations and the UCMJ. In other words, so long as they are LEGAL orders. From basic training, we are drilled to understand that we must NOT follow illegal orders. We will be held personally responsible for any illegal actions taken, regardless of who gave the order. As such, we have the responsibility, and the right, to refuse an illegal order. Killing unarmed civilians, torturing prisoners of war, and perjuring yourself on the witness stand are all illegal orders. Handing over a US citzen and soldier to a foreign power for trial could be construed as being an illegal order. After all, under what authority does a foreign power try US soldiers for their actions? This is the context for his original statement where he said he wouldn't follow orders from the president. He later went back and clarified his statement to include saying he wouldn't follow any illegal orders from the president to detain or disarm US citizens or any others that he felt were in violation of people's constitutional rights.

That said, there are certain restrictions on what we can and cannot say. Short version is we can't attend any politcal events in uniform or speak in a fashion as to create the impression that we speak on behalf of our fellow soldiers, our unit, or the military in general. We are allowed to hold a personal political opinion, but we must be clear that it is personal opinion. It's frowned upon for us to speak negatively of our commander in chief, as he is part of our chain of command, but not illegal for enlisted soldiers. It IS, however, illegal for officers to criticize any superior officer, up to and including the POTUS.

All things being equal, I think Sgt Stein is getting railroaded. The marines tend to be less tolerant of their soldiers individual rights to free speech, or any speech not signed off on by an O-6 or higher. My personal opinion is they viewed this kid as a troublemaker because of his fb page, but would have been willing to let well enough alone if he had opted to get out when his current enlistment is done. Once they learned he intended to extend, then come the charges to forcibly get him out. I would be amazed if they DIDN'T try to cut a deal with him that required him to NOT re-enlist. Strong arm action is common.

[St. Dymphna]

08' election fraud /obama is still our president, how?
come next election when he's out of office, he'll charge conspiracy and reinstate himself. i'm only slightly kidding.
if you really listen to what this man says, you'll hear for yourself how ignorant he is. he's not well spoken, either. just listen to him, he says nothing.
it's a joke, it has to be.

[KRSTYSTLCLR]

I saw that story about a month or more ago. My feeling was he should be discharged.

@Guardian..can you help clarify if his facebook page was or had a section re: the tea party and did he admin that page?

Also, a little heads up on the tea party. It began as a grassroots movement that was fed up..lol
fed up with the debt this country was building and the expanded role of the Federal Government.
When the Citizens United ruling was handed down from the high courts, many a sleezy entrapranuer (sorry for spelling) jumped on the band wagon because there was and still is a Ton of money to be made in politics all of a sudden. So please be careful what you and who you follow when hear from the tea party.

[jojo]

@ Jeff:
Why did the chicken cross the road?

Aristotle: It is the nature of chickens to cross roads.

Isaac Newton: Chickens at rest tend to stay at rest, chickens in motion tend to cross roads.

Albert Einstein: Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road moved beneath the chicken depends on your frame of reference.

Werner Heisenberg: We are not sure which side of the road the chicken was on, but it was moving very fast.

Wolfgang Pauli: There already was a chicken on this side of the road.

Erwin Schrödinger: The chicken crossed the road and didn't cross the road simultaneously.



What did the Nuclear Physicist have for lunch?
A: Fission Chips.


Anyone else see Zimmerman's new website? supposedly it is his??
http://therealgeorgezimmerman.com/

Florida state attorney Angela Corey, the special prosecutor appointed to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, said on Monday that the case will not go to a grand jury.
The decision does not rule out the possibility that George Zimmerman, Martin's shooter, could be arrested.

[jojo]

Here is one for you, Guardian and others to weigh in on- Guardian being our resident military guy.

A Marine who criticized Obama on Facebook has had a Marine corps panel review board call for his dismissal with a a less than honorable discharge. I think that is ridiculous, what happened to freedom of speech? Not all military personnel love the President but they all love their country. Cut the guy some slack, IMO.

Here is the story:

SAN DIEGO (Reuters) - A Marine who posted on Facebook that he would not follow orders from President Barack Obama should be dismissed from the military with a less-than-honorable discharge, a Marine Corps review board ruled.

Gary Stein, 26, did not comment on the ruling issued late Thursday, one day after his lawyers unsuccessfully sought to delay the review board by seeking an injunction in federal court in San Diego.

The Marines' recommendation to administratively discharge Stein came after a 13-hour hearing and an hour of deliberation by the panel. It will be submitted to Brigadier General Daniel Yoo, the commanding general of the Marine Corps Recruiting Depot, where Stein is stationed.

Yoo has not said what action he plans to take, if any. He is expected to make a decision within 30 days, according to Major Mike Armistead, a Marine Corps spokesman.

Any discharge from the military that is not honorable can mean the loss of benefits available to most U.S. military veterans.

Stein, who is a meteorologist at Camp Pendleton, served nearly nine years, including a tour of duty in Iraq. He was due to either re-enlist or end his enlistment at the end of July, according to court documents.

Stein had posted comments saying he would refuse to obey orders from the president, who is the commander-in-chief of the military, on a Facebook page called the Armed Forces Tea Party page.

He later removed the comments and said he meant only unlawful orders. In 2010, he got in similar trouble with the Marine Corps and was advised to post a disclaimer that the Armed Forces Tea Party is not affiliated with the Armed Forces.

He also posted comments to a Facebook network called METOC, which is limited to active duty meteorologists and oceanographers, where he described Obama as an enemy to America. Those comments were the basis for some of the allegations reviewed by the board.

Marines and all other military members swear an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States as well as to follow the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which restricts political activities while in uniform. Off-duty, out-of-uniform actions are far less restricted, but there are limits.

A coalition of attorneys support Stein, saying in a written statement that the First Amendment guarantees his freedom of speech.

Thoughts anyone?

Go hide Guardian they are gonna get you too j/k
I think that says people in the military can't just relax and speak freely without the hammer coming down on them. How tight do military lips have to be under this President? Don't express what you feel is all that says to others, or you will be punished.

So was his fb being monitored, or just that fb page he posted on?
Even if he signed that oath, does that mean he can't have his own views and express them, or does he have to as others have to, stfu and don't talk openly about it?
Not everyone voted for Obama, so does all have to pretend they did and nothing he does is wrong?

[Guardian7347]

I saw that story about a month or more ago. My feeling was he should be discharged.

@Guardian..can you help clarify if his facebook page was or had a section re: the tea party and did he admin that page?

Also, a little heads up on the tea party. It began as a grassroots movement that was fed up..lol
fed up with the debt this country was building and the expanded role of the Federal Government.
When the Citizens United ruling was handed down from the high courts, many a sleezy entrapranuer (sorry for spelling) jumped on the band wagon because there was and still is a Ton of money to be made in politics all of a sudden. So please be careful what you and who you follow when hear from the tea party.

It wasn't a personal fb page, it as an organizational page, of which he was one of five admins. It has a disclaimer on the top of the page that clearly states that they in no way represent the military or the US Armed Forces in any way. The disclaimer is intended to keep him clear of the legal issues. He's allowed to be associated with political organizations or clubs, so long as his presence doesn't directly or indirectly imply a representation of the armed forces. He can't be in uniform, he can't speak "as a sgt in the military"(unless he clarifies that his opinions are his alone and do not reflect those of the US military), and he can't attempt to use his rank to sway the opinions of his subordinates. The fb page in question is actual safe and in regs. A lot of smoke with no fire. To the best of my understanding, he made a post on a work-related network that has been construed as attempting to sway opinions of his peers. I don't have all the facts regarding this last bit, but that seems to be the basis of the charges. In that case, the charges would be legitimate, albeit excessive. It still smells like he's being pushed out for not stepping into line.
Sleazy Entrepreneur by who's judgement? I'm assuming(I know the risk of assuming! lol) that is a reference to the Koch brothers? Who, to my knowledge(again, I realize I'm on shaky ground here), haven't done anything illegal. Any particular cause for name-calling? Or is it just that they are multi-millionaire businessmen and therefore must be sleazy? I know I have heard accusations against them of shady practices, but nothing that has been substantiated. Meanwhile, George Soros, the billionaire socialist has been single-handedly funding ever increasingly radical democrats. Not only are his practices sleazy, not only does he embody this supposed "1%", but he actively speaks out against America as she currently is, in favor of something far more Marxist. While we're on the topic, many of Obama's bigger donators have been getting popped left and right for illegal or shady activities, causing obie to have to return contributions, but not only do you not hear about this, when you do it is downplayed as not being a big deal. So what if one donor still owed $900,000 in past due rent, but had the funds to donate $250,000 to obie's campaign! You can't hold him accountable for the people he chooses to associate himself with, right? Unless, of course, you're the Tea Party. While I can't claim to know everyone associated with the Tea party and their motives, I can notice the vicious attacks and blatant slander put out against the Tea Party since their inception. They've gone from being painted as a bunch of goofs, to bumbling idiots, to racists and rednecks, to fringe lunatics, to angry extremists who want to kill women and/or chain them to stoves again.
All that being said, KRSTY does bring up a good point, one should always be careful about believing what you're told from ANY party head. Especially one funded by an ultra-rich elitist communist, ran by a socialist with family ties to socialist and communist organizations, and with a board full of people with socialist priorities.

[Guardian7347]

Florida state attorney Angela Corey, the special prosecutor appointed to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, said on Monday that the case will not go to a grand jury.
The decision does not rule out the possibility that George Zimmerman, Martin's shooter, could be arrested.

Ok...I'm a little confused by this statement of hers. The first half indicates that after thoroughly looking into the evidence, NOTHING was found to show that Zimmerman was a cold-blooded, racist, killer who gleefully ran up and shot some innocent, doe-eyed youth for the "crime" of being in the wrong neighborhood after dark. Ok....so if he's not going to be put on trial for a crime....why would you arrest him?

[KRSTYSTLCLR]

Quick post....

@ Guardian, first off, nice pic. You look so babyfaced and sweet.

As for the Koch brothers...I wasent referring to them. I am referring to people that jumped on the Tea Party band wagon with not much more in mind than making money. You do have a point that those kind can come from any party, but I was more or less referring to the explosion of Tea Party people running for any office and how it very much coincided with the Citizens United ruling.
FYI..I dont watch any news station exclusivly, I watch bits of all of them because I want to have many different views and make my own mind up of what to believe. I would hate to be a blind sheep following the direction of any political organization. I hate to see Americans so split and devided because of the polarization of the media. Sometimes it seems like brainwashing.
Also wanted to ty for the clarification on the Sgt. that might get dishonorably discharged. Sad to think he might lose any benefits if he is. I mean the guy did serve his country for a number of years right? Can he be discharged and keep his military benefits?

[cap1015]

Florida state attorney Angela Corey, the special prosecutor appointed to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, said on Monday that the case will not go to a grand jury.
The decision does not rule out the possibility that George Zimmerman, Martin's shooter, could be arrested.

Ok...I'm a little confused by this statement of hers. The first half indicates that after thoroughly looking into the evidence, NOTHING was found to show that Zimmerman was a cold-blooded, racist, killer who gleefully ran up and shot some innocent, doe-eyed youth for the "crime" of being in the wrong neighborhood after dark. Ok....so if he's not going to be put on trial for a crime....why would you arrest him?

The Grand Jury is a legal process used by the state/court/federal Government to illicit a finding of evidence sufficient to bring about a trial. In the Grand Jury process the defense is not allowed to cross examine and at times not even allowed to be present or hear testimony. The process is extremely one sided, hence the term "With the Grand Jury process you could indict a ham sandwich".

In this particular case and many cases a Grand Jury is not required, most of the time the Grand Jury is used to defeat certain appeals in the event of guilty verdict, it varies from state to state. In Florida and many other states the District Attorney/State can bring charges without the Grand Jury process.

Her statement is not that he won't be tried for a crime, it is that they have chosen not to use the Grand Jury Process to render an indictment.

Not only do I believe there will be a trial and/or charges, there will also be a wrongful death civil action taken.
In my opinion a trial would be the best thing for all involved, it would provide public evidence of the facts of the situation and hopefully remove much of the mystery.

[Guardian7347]

Go hide Guardian they are gonna get you too j/k
I think that says people in the military can't just relax and speak freely without the hammer coming down on them. How tight do military lips have to be under this President? Don't express what you feel is all that says to others, or you will be punished.

So was his fb being monitored, or just that fb page he posted on?
Even if he signed that oath, does that mean he can't have his own views and express them, or does he have to as others have to, stfu and don't talk openly about it?
Not everyone voted for Obama, so does all have to pretend they did and nothing he does is wrong?

lol No worries hon, they aren't getting my happy ass on petty charges like that.
It wasn't HIS fb page, it was an organizational fb page, as I've just posted.
The oath we take doesn't prevent us from speaking out against that which we perceive as wrong, especially as concerns constitutional matters. If we feel freedoms and rights are being infringed upon, we have an obligation to speak up. In fact, we, as soldiers have an obligation to not only SPEAK out, but to ACT out. We swear to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. We only agree to obey the president and officers appointed over us so long as their orders are legal, and in keeping with the Constitution.
Only officers are obligated to stfu regarding superior officers(including civilian leadership, ie secretary of defense, commander in chief, etc), not enlisted.

[JeremyM]

Here's the latest on the Zimmerman/Trayvon case:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-11/news/os-george-zimmerman-arrest-20120409_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-civil-rights-leaders-second-degree-murder
Vid of the Special Prosecutor announcement:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videobeta/?watchId=2c656554-b439-4632-ab35-4f73c1340848

He was charged with second-degree murder charge in the death of Trayvon Martin and was taken into custody. Odd timing with just other day his 2 lawyers quitting him, and claimed he was suffering from PTSD and fled Florida. The article says if convicted, Zimmerman would face up to life in prison on the first-degree felony charge.

I wonder what new evidence came into play to finally bring about his arrest.