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So everything that will happen is already preordained?

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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:21 pm

Tal wrote:Now you're claiming that not only do you know the mind of God, but also that you deliberately subvert his will because you think you should. That makes you a double sinner then, right? In that single post you've contradicted everything you claimed previously. So you're either a terrible hypocrite or you have no idea what you're talking about.

As for the atheist comment...my father's side of the family are all atheists, have all made some incredible contributions to their communities without expectation of any type of payment (which is more than I can say for you. Let's face it, you do good so you won't go to hell and to get God's attention.) That's all I'll tell you because for you to make that comment in the first place means that you're a closed-minded bigot and there's no point offering anything to a closed book.


As I have previously posted, Tal:

MATTHEW 28:18-20 NKJ
18 Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

I don't see how I have contradicted anything.

Why do you claim that I only do good to be rewarded? My love for you is unconditional. I understand, as a Christian, the concept of self-sacrifice. It is an essential part of Christianity. If I were offered the choice of switching places with a sinner who was to suffer in hell, I would indeed suffer for them (if that's what Our Lord desired). In fact, Our Lord Jesus' sacrifice for us teaches that very thing.

Where does it state that aethists are required to be self-sacrificing? Aethists have no such command. Christians do. Our Lord made it a necessity, not just an ideal action to be done at our leisure.

Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it

So then, what worldly influences led to your family's generousity? To claim they came up with the idea on their own suggests that they never heard of it being practiced before. If they have heard of it being practiced before, from where then would they have likely done so? Where did the concept originate?

Science attempts to explain this by showing examples of altruism in nature. However, this does not explain true altruism, in the sense that genetic survival is not even an issue. For example; a stranger risking their life to save another stranger. Nature did not teach this. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think neither did any other society or religion aside from Christianity. It is Christianity's highest law, aside from complete devotion to Our Creator:

Mark 12:28-34 "One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, 'Of all the commandments, which is the most important?' 'The most important one,' answered Jesus, 'is this: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." The second is this: "Love your neighbour as yourself." There is no commandment greater than these.' 'Well said, teacher,' the man replied. 'You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.' When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, 'You are not far from the kingdom of God.' And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."

"Love your neighbour as yourself". How do we love ourselves? This can be described as true devotion and true kindness. In our right minds, we would never betray ourselves to unecessary loss and suffering, or dismiss an opportunity to please ourselves without any bad consequences. We do this every second of our existence. We also desire to choose the best possible path in life for ourselves, for choosing what we know to be the wrong path would clearly not be in our best interest, and would suggest self-hatred and suicidal tendencies. Now, how do we apply this attitude towards everybody else? Well, first, we would need to change our best interests to accomodate other people, therefore making other people's best interests our best interests. Now, if our best interests are equal to everybody else's best interests, would we choose personal pleasure over pleasuring another? No, because their pleasure would be our pleasure. Do you understand? This is love. This is what Christianity teaches as the second most important law of all. It comes from no other place that I know of.

There is the golden rule, which came before Lord Jesus, but it is clearly different as wikipedia points out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rule. The golden rule states the negative form for all BC origins, but it is Lord Jesus who first teaches it in the positive form. To me, they are two different rules. One states not to do to others what you don't want done to you, while the other states what I've explained in the previous paragraph. One is based on simple survival, while the other is based on love. So, where do you think your family's generousity originated from, my friend?

You will find that I am open-minded, not close-minded, and willing to hear your point of view. I do forgive you for your false and undeserved analysis of me.

God by definition is perfect, not people so by your definition of what it takes to be Christian it has become an impossible feet. By your own definition you are not a practicing Christian. Either way though if you Convert someone to Christianity and they commit a crime they are still committing a crime and you are not preventing anything.

I’m sorry, but your logic borders on psychotic. I suggest you sit down with your bible and have someone interpret that thing for you. As far as morality goes you seem to claim ownership of it and lend it out to atheists. In comparison to every other post I have read in this forum you have actually shown the least amount of morality. What does your bible say about speaking out against atheism?


It is not impossible to be Christian. Please explain why you think so. I would like to know how you consider me a non-practicing Christian as well. If I convert somebody to Christianity, it is only upon abandoning Christian ways that they commit a crime. While following Christian ways, they commit no crime. A Christian is more likely to not abandon their beliefs and commit a crime than a non-Christian is to commit a crime. Can you please explain how my logic appears psychotic and my post immoral? For your last question, I have posted it twice already:

MATTHEW 28:18-20 NKJ
18 Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:19 am

Because you are speaking out against Atheism. That is what makes you immoral. There is a difference between converting people, spreading the word of god and sharing your beliefs and speaking out against other groups, religions or anyone else.

I am absolutely positive the bible is against speaking out against other groups such as you have by saying atheists are Satanists is one example. I also do not share your belief that there is but a single source of morality and that morality is more of a universal belief in the difference between right and wrong.

You also claim that to be a Christian you must be perfect, but perfection is impossible to reach unless I have misinterpreted something in which case I apologize.

Frankly your rational about how once someone stops being Christians once they commit a crime of some sort seems to be that, a rationalization made in order to give Christianity the appearance of being perfect. Which I agree with you in saying that once someone stops practicing Christianity they stop being Christian, but a practicing Christian who commits some sort of crime one day is still a Christian committing crime especially if they go on practicing Christianity after the crime has been committed. Am I wrong in the reasoning? Of course I am certain you will respond by saying once they commit a crime they stop being Christian at that time which gives me the impression that one must be perfect in order to be Christian.

I once knew a man who was a practicing Christian. After years of knowing this person it turned out he had been raping this young girl over and over. Each time he raped her afterwards he would ask god for forgiveness in which he would believe he was forgiven and in turn would not go to hell. Then he would rape her again and again each time asking for forgiveness. Not that I’m saying all Christians are like that, but this is a very true story and there seem to be similarities to your rational. Perhaps psychotic is a strong word in your case, but in this example I have given it fits perfectly. If I had to go back and say it again I would rephrase it and say it seems like your own personal rationalization and other Christians might disagree with you.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Tal » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:28 pm

7Believer wrote:
Tal wrote:Now you're claiming that not only do you know the mind of God, but also that you deliberately subvert his will because you think you should. That makes you a double sinner then, right? In that single post you've contradicted everything you claimed previously. So you're either a terrible hypocrite or you have no idea what you're talking about.

As for the atheist comment...my father's side of the family are all atheists, have all made some incredible contributions to their communities without expectation of any type of payment (which is more than I can say for you. Let's face it, you do good so you won't go to hell and to get God's attention.) That's all I'll tell you because for you to make that comment in the first place means that you're a closed-minded bigot and there's no point offering anything to a closed book.


As I have previously posted, Tal:

MATTHEW 28:18-20 NKJ
18 Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

I don't see how I have contradicted anything.

Why do you claim that I only do good to be rewarded? My love for you is unconditional. I understand, as a Christian, the concept of self-sacrifice. It is an essential part of Christianity. If I were offered the choice of switching places with a sinner who was to suffer in hell, I would indeed suffer for them (if that's what Our Lord desired). In fact, Our Lord Jesus' sacrifice for us teaches that very thing.

Where does it state that aethists are required to be self-sacrificing? Aethists have no such command. Christians do. Our Lord made it a necessity, not just an ideal action to be done at our leisure.

Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it

So then, what worldly influences led to your family's generousity? To claim they came up with the idea on their own suggests that they never heard of it being practiced before. If they have heard of it being practiced before, from where then would they have likely done so? Where did the concept originate?

Science attempts to explain this by showing examples of altruism in nature. However, this does not explain true altruism, in the sense that genetic survival is not even an issue. For example; a stranger risking their life to save another stranger. Nature did not teach this. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think neither did any other society or religion aside from Christianity. It is Christianity's highest law, aside from complete devotion to Our Creator:

Mark 12:28-34 "One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, 'Of all the commandments, which is the most important?' 'The most important one,' answered Jesus, 'is this: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." The second is this: "Love your neighbour as yourself." There is no commandment greater than these.' 'Well said, teacher,' the man replied. 'You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.' When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, 'You are not far from the kingdom of God.' And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."

"Love your neighbour as yourself". How do we love ourselves? This can be described as true devotion and true kindness. In our right minds, we would never betray ourselves to unecessary loss and suffering, or dismiss an opportunity to please ourselves without any bad consequences. We do this every second of our existence. We also desire to choose the best possible path in life for ourselves, for choosing what we know to be the wrong path would clearly not be in our best interest, and would suggest self-hatred and suicidal tendencies. Now, how do we apply this attitude towards everybody else? Well, first, we would need to change our best interests to accomodate other people, therefore making other people's best interests our best interests. Now, if our best interests are equal to everybody else's best interests, would we choose personal pleasure over pleasuring another? No, because their pleasure would be our pleasure. Do you understand? This is love. This is what Christianity teaches as the second most important law of all. It comes from no other place that I know of.

There is the golden rule, which came before Lord Jesus, but it is clearly different as wikipedia points out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rule. The golden rule states the negative form for all BC origins, but it is Lord Jesus who first teaches it in the positive form. To me, they are two different rules. One states not to do to others what you don't want done to you, while the other states what I've explained in the previous paragraph. One is based on simple survival, while the other is based on love. So, where do you think your family's generousity originated from, my friend?

You will find that I am open-minded, not close-minded, and willing to hear your point of view. I do forgive you for your false and undeserved analysis of me.

God by definition is perfect, not people so by your definition of what it takes to be Christian it has become an impossible feet. By your own definition you are not a practicing Christian. Either way though if you Convert someone to Christianity and they commit a crime they are still committing a crime and you are not preventing anything.

I’m sorry, but your logic borders on psychotic. I suggest you sit down with your bible and have someone interpret that thing for you. As far as morality goes you seem to claim ownership of it and lend it out to atheists. In comparison to every other post I have read in this forum you have actually shown the least amount of morality. What does your bible say about speaking out against atheism?


It is not impossible to be Christian. Please explain why you think so. I would like to know how you consider me a non-practicing Christian as well. If I convert somebody to Christianity, it is only upon abandoning Christian ways that they commit a crime. While following Christian ways, they commit no crime. A Christian is more likely to not abandon their beliefs and commit a crime than a non-Christian is to commit a crime. Can you please explain how my logic appears psychotic and my post immoral? For your last question, I have posted it twice already:

MATTHEW 28:18-20 NKJ
18 Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


Parroting and plagarising. You don't have an original thought in your head do you?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:27 pm

Because you are speaking out against Atheism. That is what makes you immoral. There is a difference between converting people, spreading the word of god and sharing your beliefs and speaking out against other groups, religions or anyone else.

I am absolutely positive the bible is against speaking out against other groups such as you have by saying atheists are Satanists is one example. I also do not share your belief that there is but a single source of morality and that morality is more of a universal belief in the difference between right and wrong.


I apologize for using this quote again, but it seems to have been overlooked:

MATTHEW 28:18-20 NKJ
18 Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Here is another quote:

"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve," MATT 4:10.

And another one:

8 While they were at Lystra, Paul and Barnabas came upon a man with crippled feet. He had been that way from birth, so he had never walked.

9 He was listening as Paul preached, and Paul noticed him and realized he had faith to be healed.

10 So Paul called to him in a loud voice, "Stand up!" And the man jumped to his feet and started walking.

11 When the listening crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in their local dialect, "These men are gods in human bodies!"

12 They decided that Barnabas was the Greek god Zeus and that Paul, because he was the chief speaker, was Hermes.

13 The temple of Zeus was located on the outskirts of the city. The priest of the temple and the crowd brought oxen and wreaths of flowers, and they prepared to sacrifice to the apostles at the city gates.

14 But when Barnabas and Paul heard what was happening, they tore their clothing in dismay and ran out among the people, shouting,

15 "Friends,* why are you doing this? We are merely human beings like yourselves! We have come to bring you the Good News that you should turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them.2

The last sentence proves my point. Here is one last quote:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

You see, The Bible does desire that we teach others Christianity, even if they have their own different beliefs. I have not claimed aethists are satanists. I do claim that they are the farthest group from Our Lord, even when including theists, and therefore are the easiest to corrupt by evil. Accordingly, which belief-based group do you think commits the most crime in our world? If you claim aethists, I agree. Regarding your view on morality, could you please post the basis for your belief? I don't mind discussing the issue more with you.

You also claim that to be a Christian you must be perfect, but perfection is impossible to reach unless I have misinterpreted something in which case I apologize.


I did not claim that perfection was required, only complete devotion. You could say that, after completely devoting yourself to Our Lord, you have done the ultimate best you can do, and therefore are as close to being perfect as is allowed for humans.

Frankly your rational about how once someone stops being Christians once they commit a crime of some sort seems to be that, a rationalization made in order to give Christianity the appearance of being perfect. Which I agree with you in saying that once someone stops practicing Christianity they stop being Christian, but a practicing Christian who commits some sort of crime one day is still a Christian committing crime especially if they go on practicing Christianity after the crime has been committed. Am I wrong in the reasoning? Of course I am certain you will respond by saying once they commit a crime they stop being Christian at that time which gives me the impression that one must be perfect in order to be Christian.


It is technically correct that Christians cannot commit crimes. The very act cancels their actuality of being so. This isn't a statement to boost Christianity, but a widely ignored truth. I am glad you agree with me on it. I do think you are wrong in your reasoning, as you have asked. You seem to contradict yourself in the process. Like I have stated above, it takes complete devotion, not perfection, and is possible to be Christian; especially if you pray to Our Lord for Him to allow you to submit every part of your being to Him, thus leaving no chance for conflict with Him. With the help of Our Lord, it is indeed possible, my friend.

I once knew a man who was a practicing Christian. After years of knowing this person it turned out he had been raping this young girl over and over. Each time he raped her afterwards he would ask god for forgiveness in which he would believe he was forgiven and in turn would not go to hell. Then he would rape her again and again each time asking for forgiveness. Not that I’m saying all Christians are like that, but this is a very true story and there seem to be similarities to your rational. Perhaps psychotic is a strong word in your case, but in this example I have given it fits perfectly. If I had to go back and say it again I would rephrase it and say it seems like your own personal rationalization and other Christians might disagree with you.Because you are speaking out against Atheism. That is what makes you immoral. There is a difference between converting people, spreading the word of god and sharing your beliefs and speaking out against other groups, religions or anyone else.


The example you gave ignores the fact that the man did not do everything he could to prevent the sin from reoccuring, allowing chance for further error, and thus was not completely devoted to Our Lord; therefore a false Christian. Speaking out against aethism is in no way immoral, especially when it involves simply stating facts. Immoral to me means ill intended, and I have no ill intent for anyone. I love you all. I speak out against other belief-based groups, because Our Lord Jesus requires that I do so, as I have posted above, and also, because it is true that they do not offer the same perfection (referring to the religion, not it's members) as Christianity. Instead, they provide a path that ultimately leads to an unpleasant conclusion. I attempt to reveal how, and why, not just post a baseless statement. If you wish to discuss this topic more, I am willing to do so.

Parroting and plagarising. You don't have an original thought in your head do you?


Your replies to me are beginning to appear illogical, Tal, and continuosly offensive. I would not have needed to repeat myself if my message wasn't overlooked the first time. Quoting isn't plagiarism. Claiming another's ideas as your own is the actual definition. I noticed that you did not address the replies (perhaps because you were shown to be mistaken), but simply stated your hollow opinion on a subtopic. You chose an abusive ignorant approach rather than an uncondescending logical one. I forgive you, and I believe your mistakes to have been caused by interference from evil, not claiming that I am superior to you in any way, only that my conditions appear more favorable than yours. This is why I do not seek to insult you, yet you do so to me.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Tal » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:57 pm

7Believer wrote:
Your replies to me are beginning to appear illogical, Tal, and continuosly offensive...I noticed that you did not address the replies (perhaps because you were shown to be mistaken), but simply stated your hollow opinionon a subtopic. You chose an abusive ignorant approach rather than an uncondescending logical one... not claiming that I am superior to you in any way, only that my conditions appear more favorable than yours. This is why I do not seek to insult you, yet you do so to me.


:lol:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:56 pm

To 7Believer:

These are the two things you have said I have the greatest problem with:

---“Morality between atheists and Christians speaks for itself. For atheists, I think it is only what is in their best interest that defines their morals, unless they borrow from religions like Christianity. If someone can offer evidence to the contrary, please do so.

Indeed, all crime committed can be said to be done by non-religion (positive, anyway; there are satanists) affiliated people.”---

I quoted you as saying, “Atheists are Satanists” I got from here, but after reading again this may need to be cleared up for me if this is not what you meant.


How is it fact rather then opinion regarding your argument there about morality? It is indeed immoral to say such a thing? You seem to not have the ability to separate what it means to spread the word of god and tell others that their beliefs are wrong. Are you not saying Atheists are wrong when you say they have no morals and can only borrow from Christianity or other religions?

You use logic and call it fact, but this type of reasoning is metaphysical. Others can disagree using nothing more then logic and be just as correct. This is why it is opinion and not fact. Besides, an Atheist can just as easily live just as clean and moral of a life as anyone else. Is this not true? I know many Atheists that volunteer, donate money, and help make their small part of the world better to the best of their ability and better by any standards all without expecting anything in return and continue to do so without getting anything in return. These are people that help inspire the world and to group them into your little definition there is not only wrong, but insulting as it should be to anyone that reads that.

The claim that it is impossible for Christians to commit crimes I’m not going to argue any further. I disagree with your definition of Christianity, but that is beside the point. My argument is with your quotes that I have posted above.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:27 pm

Daniel24 wrote:To 7Believer:

These are the two things you have said I have the greatest problem with:

---“Morality between atheists and Christians speaks for itself. For atheists, I think it is only what is in their best interest that defines their morals, unless they borrow from religions like Christianity. If someone can offer evidence to the contrary, please do so.

Indeed, all crime committed can be said to be done by non-religion (positive, anyway; there are satanists) affiliated people.”---

I quoted you as saying, “Atheists are Satanists” I got from here, but after reading again this may need to be cleared up for me if this is not what you meant.


How is it fact rather then opinion regarding your argument there about morality? It is indeed immoral to say such a thing? You seem to not have the ability to separate what it means to spread the word of god and tell others that their beliefs are wrong. Are you not saying Atheists are wrong when you say they have no morals and can only borrow from Christianity or other religions?

You use logic and call it fact, but this type of reasoning is metaphysical. Others can disagree using nothing more then logic and be just as correct. This is why it is opinion and not fact. Besides, an Atheist can just as easily live just as clean and moral of a life as anyone else. Is this not true? I know many Atheists that volunteer, donate money, and help make their small part of the world better to the best of their ability and better by any standards all without expecting anything in return and continue to do so without getting anything in return. These are people that help inspire the world and to group them into your little definition there is not only wrong, but insulting as it should be to anyone that reads that.

The claim that it is impossible for Christians to commit crimes I’m not going to argue any further. I disagree with your definition of Christianity, but that is beside the point. My argument is with your quotes that I have posted above.



I know many Atheists that volunteer, donate money, and help make their small part of the world better to the best of their ability and better by any standards all without expecting anything in return and continue to do so without getting anything in return.

These are people that help inspire the world and to group them into your little definition there is not only wrong, but insulting as it should be to anyone that reads that.


Excellent point :cheers:

I personally know several Atheists who do that--including my wife and I also have Christians friends doing acts just like that and do not expect anything in return.
:cheers: to them!
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:47 pm

Daniel24 wrote:To 7Believer:

These are the two things you have said I have the greatest problem with:

---“Morality between atheists and Christians speaks for itself. For atheists, I think it is only what is in their best interest that defines their morals, unless they borrow from religions like Christianity. If someone can offer evidence to the contrary, please do so.

Indeed, all crime committed can be said to be done by non-religion (positive, anyway; there are satanists) affiliated people.”---

I quoted you as saying, “Atheists are Satanists” I got from here, but after reading again this may need to be cleared up for me if this is not what you meant.


How is it fact rather then opinion regarding your argument there about morality? It is indeed immoral to say such a thing? You seem to not have the ability to separate what it means to spread the word of god and tell others that their beliefs are wrong. Are you not saying Atheists are wrong when you say they have no morals and can only borrow from Christianity or other religions?

You use logic and call it fact, but this type of reasoning is metaphysical. Others can disagree using nothing more then logic and be just as correct. This is why it is opinion and not fact. Besides, an Atheist can just as easily live just as clean and moral of a life as anyone else. Is this not true? I know many Atheists that volunteer, donate money, and help make their small part of the world better to the best of their ability and better by any standards all without expecting anything in return and continue to do so without getting anything in return. These are people that help inspire the world and to group them into your little definition there is not only wrong, but insulting as it should be to anyone that reads that.

The claim that it is impossible for Christians to commit crimes I’m not going to argue any further. I disagree with your definition of Christianity, but that is beside the point. My argument is with your quotes that I have posted above.


Regarding your atheist/satanist comment, what I have stated is that there are negative religions that allow crime in addition to atheists, not that all atheists are part of these religions. I hope that helps clarify my message for you.

When I use logic to explain how 2 + 2 = 4, is this not the same as a fact? It is also more than mere opinion, as it does not just apply from my point of view. It is true regardless of who observes it.

Daniel24, if someone is not a Christian, then there beliefs are different from Christianity. Therefore, it is actually impossible to convert anybody without teaching them that their prior beliefs were wrong. To spread The Word of Our Lord depends on changing their beliefs; it is unavoidable.

If the truth upsets you, that is not my intention. Still, what I have declared is true; a religious person that stops practicing their religion, regardless of how long or short the timeframe, is no longer technically a member of that religion. Now, almost all positive religions teach not to commit crimes. Therefore, practicing members of these religions cannot commit crimes without abandoning their religion. Theists include people who believe in karma and oneness and therefore are less likely overall to commit crimes then atheists. If you disagree with this statement, please explain why. Now, when compared, Christians commit no crimes while atheists commit the majority of crimes; their competition being theists and negative religions (clearly the minorities).

For an atheist to adopt religious virtues, and then be offended when the origin of those virtues is revealed, indicates bitterness over loss of false self-righteousness. This is identical to pride. For virtuous atheists to think that atheism taught them their virtue is illogical; atheists have no virtuous laws of their own. Atheism has no rule stating virtuous action is required. They have social law which dictates morality, but only to the extent of not committing any jail-worthy crimes. The only thing atheism teaches is not to believe in Our Lord. This, in itself, is also illogical, because their is no proof of Him not existing and far greater risk in ignoring that possibility than accepting it.

I do believe there are virtuous atheists. I simply point out that it is not atheism which makes them virtuous. It is the practices of the religions from which they copy that does. Please read this site: http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/The-Impact-of-Christianity. If you have any more concerns, I am willing to address them.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:48 pm

To 7Believer:

Why would someone join a religion if the very person trying to convert them speaks badly of them? Possibly unintentional, but I think telling anyone that they have no morals is going to give you a negative response. Just seems like to me that what you are saying is a method of knocking someone down just so you can be the one to pick them up.

Of course I disagree with you when you say the origins of morality come from Christianity. You may believe that, but it is far from fact. It’s a rationalization at best. I’m an intelligent person; I know a fact when I hear it and I’m sure religion or possibly more accurately said “religious people” carry enough pride around with them to make a statement like that, but pride doesn’t make it fact either. I guess it may fit in the realm of religious fact, but that doesn’t fit in with the rest of the world.

As you put it, Christianity being the source of morality looking back on religions, didn’t the church used to persecute people that disagreed with them or just had an original idea that may have apposed the church? Scientists being forced to publish their work on their death beds in fear that the church will persecute them. If anything in my opinion religions lacked morality in the past and only recently have gained morals and tolerance for others, but still seem to lack a lot of tolerance.

So if Christianity lacked morals in the past how can it be the source of morality now?

Are you not chasing people away; making enemies instead of friends by saying things like you have said. Not that all that you have said is bad, but the unfortunate thing about it is the few negative things you have said have stuck in my mind the most whereas anything positive you have said is completely forgotten. The only thing fresh in my mind are the negative points you have made and turns out to be the topic of discussion rather then sharing your religion. So in the end no matter how you put it on paper or organized it in your mind attempting to practice this same thing in the real world doesn’t quite work out the same way. I’m an engineer and in this field we have two terms called “Ideal” and “Realistic”. Ideal is what a design looks like on paper and realistic is when we actually build and test the design. They always, 100% of the time behave differently then predicted. So when you attempt to apply this flawless logic of yours in the real world it becomes unrealistic. At least from my point of view.

Anyway, I’m not against religion. I have a very open mind, but I gave religion a chance a long time ago. It just didn’t work out for me. My dad is Catholic and my mom is Christian. I practiced Christianity throughout my childhood and teenage years. Funny thing is my life began to improve only when I gave up religion and made the choice to not believe in god. I was never able to fully believe anyway so I guess you can say I never really had a faith my entire life. I always had my doubts all the way as far back as I can remember. I never believed any of the stories or anything else. Some stories I believed less then others. Religion seemed like a philosophy to me rather then something I should base my entire life on and worship.

Now from an Atheist point of view I can tell you the drive for morality has nothing to do with avoiding jail time. An Atheist can easily say that the drive for morals from Christianity is to avoid going to hell. Isn’t that the same thing? It is pointless to even bring that up since I believe for the majority of the population is untrue. Besides morality goes beyond abiding by the law. It’s about doing the right thing no matter what whether the law is involved or not; whether you are being watched or not. Morals go completely out of the picture once someone is forced to abide by them. Morals are a free uninfluenced choice, but if one is coerced through fear to obey the law or a set of morals they are not morals at all. Neither are morals that people are forced to obey through fear of going to hell. And if that is the basis of why a person is moral or not as you have stated since hell being a much worse place then jail then by that definition alone Atheists more freely practice morality then Christians do.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Tal » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:12 pm

Beautifully articulated Daniel. There were a couple of points in your post that I'm going to think about more deeply when it's quiet.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:39 am

I did not state that all non-Christians are without morals. I do state that their concept of morality doesn't lead to universal harmony, which should be the goal of every human. When I point out the difference between beliefs, and there beliefs are revealed to be less logical and more harmful, this is not intended to upset them. However, as Christianity teaches, the devil corrupts, the flesh is corruptible, and feelings belong to the flesh.

I once again did not state that the origins of morality originated from Christianity. I do state that virtues are kept in practice only by religions; as atheism only teaches not to believe in Our Lord, and nothing else. The difference being that morals allow for basic survival while virtues go beyond that to attempt universal harmony. Only the virtues of Christianity can achieve that goal, as I have continuously explained.

We have already discussed how non-practicing Christians are not actually Christian.

I am glad you have mentioned that not everything I have stated is bad, but that you are unable to focus on the good, and that only the apparent controversial points stick out. This is a good example of evil corruption to me. I am not saying in any way that you are evil, my friend, only that evil is interfering with you. Not many people seem to notice these subtle diversions. Thank you. I may indeed make more enemies than friends, but consider the Christian belief that evil doesn't want anybody to be saved by Our Lord, and will interfere if able. Therefore, any path that leads away from Our Lord will be made more appealing by it. However, when logic is applied and fairly considered, I do believe that those who are capable of practicing it will learn for themselves what is true.

You state that life began to improve after abandoning Our Lord. If Our Lord doesn't exist, then shouldn't life have stayed the same after abandoning Him? You yourself state that it was a 'funny' thing; meaning ironic, or unlikely. However, if evil had been pressuring you to abandon Our Lord, and then rewarded you upon doing so, does this not make perfect sense to you?

I did not state that the moral drive for all atheists is avoiding jail-time, but that the law is the only recognized set of rules by which they live, and that it is without virtue. Regarding fear of hell, if this is the only reason for Christians' practicing Christianity then they are not truly Christians, as this implies without the possibility of hell they would no longer practice Christianity. However, being afraid of drowning encourages people not to swim too far out to sea, and therefore saves their life. The reality of purgatory or hell can lead a selfish person to consider the ways of Christianity, as opposed to simply stating it is unkind, and from there they receive the best chances of discovering the true reason not to be selfish.

Christianity does not force others to practice their way, but it does teach the consequences of not practicing their way. The choice resides on the individual. The more knowledge they have of what all their options will conclude in, the better off they are in choosing the right option.

Daniel24, do you agree that by practicing indifference one is not seeking unity, and is therefore promoting the continuance of conflict? Do you agree that by seeking unity, one tries to prevent conflict and promote harmony? If you cannot justify the conclusion of your belief, how is it the right belief? Consider the possibility of an all atheist world as opposed to an all Christian world. In your honest opinion, which world would most likely destroy itself? Simple. Which world allows for, and tolerates, hatred? Now, which world would accomplish the most in terms of progress? Simple. Which world would completely agree on everything, and therefore work in perfect unison?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:31 pm

Quoting 7Believer:

“do you agree that by practicing indifference one is not seeking unity, and is therefore promoting the continuance of conflict? Do you agree that by seeking unity, one tries to prevent conflict and promote harmony? If you cannot justify the conclusion of your belief, how is it the right belief? Consider the possibility of an all atheist world as opposed to an all Christian world. In your honest opinion, which world would most likely destroy itself? Simple. Which world allows for, and tolerates, hatred? Now, which world would accomplish the most in terms of progress? Simple. Which world would completely agree on everything, and therefore work in perfect unison?”

I do not believe enough people practice Christianity by the standards you have stated in order to create the harmony in which you seek; not even other Christians apparently. All over the world there are religious groups that seem to have their own agenda and seem to have their own rules, their own interpretations and rationalizations (meaning how can they still do what they want to do regardless of what their religion tells them and still call themselves religious or good). When I say that by no means am I stating that what a group does in the name of one religion reflects all other individuals outside of that group so don’t take that the wrong way.

It is these groups which exist on a much greater scale that affect all of us much more then the standards you speak of. This is why I have agreed with your definition of what it means to be a Christian, but why I disagree with you about how Christians really act. You do not call them Christians because they do not meet the standards you have set, but they do and they do believe in god and they are still out there doing harm thinking they are doing good or just doing harm intentionally. They are not non religious because they believe in god. They simply practice their own version of their religion as many millions upon millions of others also do. I’m speaking on realistic terms here; not your perfect version of Christianity.

Now, I do not think that an all Christian world would work because without opposition to keep peoples greed and personal endeavors in check the people that run things, large church groups, leaders, and anyone that has gained any power will attempt to take advantage of others as we have seen throughout history. Religion is definitely not innocent of this. Nor do I believe an all atheist world would work any better for the same reasons. I think a mixture of different beliefs works best as it teaches us all the most and teaches us how to live together. When one group attempts to make everyone believe they are better then everyone else is when you see conflict or telling others their beliefs are wrong.

I am completely pro tolerance and my idea of a perfect world is for everyone of many different beliefs to be able to share the same church\building at the same time and have everyone’s ideas and beliefs shared equally without anyone attempting to tell others they are wrong or ones ideas are better then anothers.

You also wrote:

“Christianity does not force others to practice their way, but it does teach the consequences of not practicing their way. The choice resides on the individual. The more knowledge they have of what all their options will conclude in, the better off they are in choosing the right option.”

Blue laws force people to practice religious ways against their will. The pledge of allegiance was changed from saying, “Under Guard” To saying, “Under God”. Seems to me that wasn’t even necessary. Creationists are constantly trying to get creation taught in place of science in public classrooms under the veil of “Intelligent Design”. That’s a big one. The intent of Blue laws are clearly to force people to abide. Blue laws are completely unnecessary so there is an obvious agenda there.


You also wrote:

“You state that life began to improve after abandoning Our Lord. If Our Lord doesn't exist, then shouldn't life have stayed the same after abandoning Him? You yourself state that it was a 'funny' thing; meaning ironic, or unlikely. However, if evil had been pressuring you to abandon Our Lord, and then rewarded you upon doing so, does this not make perfect sense to you?”

Great question, but there is a lot to it. I’ll start off by saying that I think that religion works for some, but not others. I think that religion has a way of making monsters out of some people. I mean that in the minority, I’m sure most people function just fine following a religion. Others I think function better outside of religion. My story is one of those stories except on the extreme end of things.

I simply lived my life differently when I followed Christianity. In turn this inadvertently led me into health problems a couple times. You can probably chop this all up to me being a stupid kid and still thinking I’m invincible as a lot of teenagers do, but the point is I ended up with a serious health problem that could have been averted had I been paying closer attention. At that single moment of realization I came to the conclusion that the only reason I didn’t pay as close attention as I needed to is because I thought god was watching over me; I was a good person, I always did the right thing, I’m honest, but my focus was on God rather then myself.

This new situation I was in left me in a terrible spot. Lost my job because I couldn’t return to work, lost my house, my girlfriend left me, I was plummeting into debt uncontrollably, and my living expenses quadrupled all in a matter of just a few months. During all of this time I focused on that realization I had which told me the only reason I was in that situation is because of me. I now had to take complete responsibility for myself or I will literally die. That is no exaggeration, my life was literally in the balance and I had to react. The only feasible way to do that is to take all responsibility for all of my actions. All of my successes, all of my failures and misfortunes. Even the things that probably were not my fault I took responsibility for as some choice I made somewhere in my past led me to that spot. I had no family to rely on and only a few close enough friends I could ask for help when I really needed it, but chose not to. Over a period of 3 years I dug myself out of that situation and came out way on top in perfect health, with a great job, and a great life. The only possible conclusion at that point I could have come to is that I was alone.

So when you take the stance of personal responsibility like I did doesn’t it more or less defeat the ideas you have taken regarding Atheism. Your ideas and I mean this in the best of ways as I can and still say this, but there is a much deeper world out there and you seem to focus on the shallow some times.

You have great ideas and you state things very well and I’m sorry if you had to repeat a few points, but unfortunately someone like you I can never agree with in any major way.

So now to answer your question, yes I believed in god to a point and my life did not stay the same once I chose Atheism because I took a completely different stance on life which in a sense only affects what I believe and doesn’t really have anything to do with whether or not god is real.

Atheism works for me far better then religion did. Besides, I was never given the chance to learn religion on my own; it was not a free choice since I was raised with it at such a young age it might be considered more like brainwashing then freely learning something. Choosing Atheism was a free choice and the lessons learned were far more real.

I have never seen, heard, smelled, touched or sensed god in anyway, but when you get hit by a car I guarantee you will know that car is real.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Ziggy » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:56 pm

7Believer wrote: when logic is applied and fairly considered, I do believe that those who are capable of practicing it will learn for themselves what is true.?


when logic is applied is when Christianity begins to lose credibility.

It takes a leap of faith to believe that a virgin can give birth...that a dead man can come back to life...or that a man can turn water into wine when they ran out of booze at the party.


I'm not saying anyone's wrong for believing these things, they just defy logic
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Tal » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:45 am

I accidently poked myself in the same eye TWICE today (really. Shutup). So god in all 'his' omniscience planned 46 years ago that this would happen to me at exactly these times on precisely this date.
What a waste of pure light and energy. Seriously.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby woodenspirit » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:48 am

Tal, i believe this to be true, yet i have not figured out why this God gives us a brain.
My body is dead but my brain refuses to believe it.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Tal » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:52 am

When you put it that way, woo, the whole deal seems pointless really. But I'm figuring that the Spirit is the key and the rest might be residual.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:47 pm

Daniel24 wrote:
heartsdreamer wrote:Not!

If everything that is preordained then all the future's causes and conditions should already be present. If that were so, nothing could stop them from expressing themselves at once and that's illogical.

So we have free will :eat:


Don't know if anyone has said this already, but free will being defined as an uninfluenced choice is limited to the amount of influence in your life.

For example being pressured to smoke a cigarette and then choosing to smoke. Would you still have made that same choice without all the pressure to do it? If your choice is influenced is it free?


"I choose, therefore I am." Life is about choices, isn't it?
"I think, therefore I am." This one doesn't fly with me because we're not our thoughts.

If you're pressured to smoke you have a two choices: refuse or accept. What about if you're forced to smoke at gunpoint? Do you still have your free will? Most likely not but there's a fuzzy line here. This one I let the philosophers debate it.

Does a prisoner loses his free will while in prison?

Before every act of volition to execute an action, our brains bursts out with lots of activity 400 milliseconds (fMRI analysis) before the moment we decide to act. Amazing isn't it? This is a fact!

Within these 400 ms there is a 40 millisecond window labeled a "conscious veto" to help us stop the action we wanted to commit. It seems there's an unconscious activity in the brain prior to each act of volition. This is very strange--it seems to defeat our sense of free will but it doesn't. What causes this unconscious activity? Is consciousness prior to this brain activity?
Is consciousness prior to our "will?" It seems to.

There's a heated debate going on on this.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:53 pm

You state an all Christian world would not work because of greed. I have already explained how a sinful Christian is not a Christian, and you do claim to agree with me on the definition of a Christian. You also remove Our Loving Lord from the equation. With Him to lead and instruct us, we would all be on the perfect path. Any complicating problem that arises could be brought to Him. I consider Roman Catholics, containing more than half of all Christians, to be the true Christianity, and the one in which I refer to most. However, I still consider the other denominations' members to be Christian as they also try to serve Our Lord to the best of their ability. The unanswered questions of "which way is right" are only a handful, and do not draw away from the fundamental beliefs that unite us. We all believe in Lord Jesus and try to follow His teachings, thus procuring Heaven instead of purgatory or hell.

When you state that different beliefs are best because they teach us how to live together, it is actually our similar goals that teach us to live together, not our different beliefs. They only teach us to be different. In order for us to all be united, we need one united way of life. Otherwise, it isn't really a unison at all, because we will still be divided. Therefore, universal harmony is impossible without one way of life being chosen over all other ways of life. The conflict that appears to ensue during the uniting process is a conflict that was already there to begin with. Don't you find it ironic that when unity is sought, irrational feelings arrive? As I have continuously explained in other posts, the root cause of irrational behaviour is the root cause of stress; currently unknown. Or, according to Christianity, the devil. Have you ever heard the expression, "divide and conquer"?

Again, the act of discussing the reasons in which another person's beliefs are wrong is greatly exaggerated as bad. Even if you don't physically tell somebody that their beliefs are wrong, by having seperate beliefs, you still believe their beliefs to be wrong. Therefore, it isn't the act of believing other people's beliefs to be wrong, which you are all participants of, but the act of voicing it openly that you consider bad. When we know that we consider each other's beliefs to be wrong, how is voicing it openly a bad thing? Honesty, my friends, is not a bad thing, despite what irrational feelings like pride and anger make you think. Once again, I do credit evil for those irrational feelings. The truth is we all believe other people's beliefs to be wrong, and by pretending we don't, the issue doesn't get solved (and it is an issue; every single conflict on this site is due to different beliefs, even small scale opinionated conflicts). Only by addressing our hindering differences and finding a common solution can we hope to achieve universal harmony, eliminating any potential source for future conflicts in the process.

If a government enforces a blue law, this is a government action, and not a Christian one. Governments act on behalf of the people they are elected to govern. Also, before a law is passed, votes are taken. Therefore, when a Christian convinces a government to accept a certain way of life, they do not force that government, or it's people, to do anything. The government and it's people decide for themselves. As for those who don't vote, or vote against, they are in the minority, and according to their agreed upon legal system, are required to abide; not by the Christian, but by the government and the people they govern. Western civilization is founded on Christianity, and the weekend originated from The Sabbath Law, without which people would be working straight through the months.

I think personal responsibility actually plays a bigger role in Christianity than it does in atheism. In Christianity, you are responsible for everybody, just as you live your life for everybody. You do not live it for yourself, or your family, or your friends, but for every single person in the world. It is your Christian duty to put the interests of others before your own, especially the interests of Our Lord. You state that your main reason for abandoning Christianity is because you thought Our Lord would protect you while you chose to act foolishly. If I am mistaken, I apologize. It appears as if you blamed Our Lord for your own faulty judgement; this is the opposite of practicing personal responsibility. Then you claim that it was only because of abandoning Him that you were able to fix your problems. How is being responsible a non-Christian practice, my friend? Couldn't you have just as easily done the same things while still believing in Our Lord? Your reason for abandoning Christianity appears illogical. It still seems to apply with my previously posted belief of evil's interference, though. Even more so, now that I know how you rationalized it.

I do communicate with Our Lord, and this gives me hard proof to the contrary that He doesn't exist. You seem to be of reasonable enough character; perhaps you would be willing to attempt seeking the truth for yourself? All I ask of you is one simple prayer, asking Our Lord to reveal His existence to you. If you choose to accept, you will give me great joy, as I know Our Lord to be faithful. Please consider it.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:44 pm

If we all share an equal point of view how can we possibly gain new knowledge? The United States which is arguably one of the best things the world could have done was founded by universal Unitarians which they then took the power away from large religious groups and put laws in place to protect the citizens of the country from having people force their beliefs onto others. In that time the U.S has certainly had its ups and downs, but it is also what has made this nation so great. It draws in the strengths from a variety of nations and cultures and gives us the best of what everyone has to offer. Everyone has an equal voice and the country flourished on those grounds. Diversity has made this country great and it is easy to see that even though the country has great diversity that we are also unified. If religion had its way this very conversation may very well be censored or be illegal as religion has shown us this ugly side many times in the past.

Yes, I did agree with your definition of a Christian, but I also stated that it is unreasonable. You have merely used a form of logic to say that Christians are perfect, but by your definition people must be heading in and out of Christianity constantly. One day you are a Christian and the next day you are not, but wait, religion allows for forgiveness so now you are a Christian again then maybe you stay a Christian, but the guy next to you screws up and now he is no longer a Christian until he is then forgiven by god. How ever you rationalize it the definition you have presented is irrational. It doesn’t really exist in real life largely because everyone interprets god, the bible, and their version of their religion differently. You simply have high standards and undoubtedly great rationality skills. No amount of rational can convince me differently from what I have already seen, experienced and know. Now, I understand your logic, but if a Christian commits some sort of crime or “sin” Christianity cannot simply cast them aside and continue to claim perfection whilst looking down at the rest of the world claiming to be better, greater, and the teacher of all.

It seems this universal harmony you seek can also be described as eliminating those that disagree. If everyone believed the same thing we would never have a fresh point of view until some intelligent, “deviant” character challenged those in charge with the guts to say, “This is what I believe and you cannot tell me otherwise!” If you look in the history books I think you’ll find many characters like this that have been forced to stand up in the face of religion. Isaac Newton is one, but probably not the best example. I think what creates unity and I have also stated this before is tolerance towards others. Since there is no chance the world will unite as one with one religion and one set of beliefs it is safe to say that teaching tolerance of all kinds including religious tolerance is a more sensible approach to unity.

No matter how you rationalize these blue laws are still forcing people to obey a useless law. For example, what good is a law that forces all businesses to close on Sunday? Can’t the people that want to close down for the day close no matter what? There is nothing stopping them yet CHRISTIANS who propose these laws, and CHRISTIANS which vote for these laws are the ones doing this. The proposition of the law itself is unconstitutional so the rights of the people have been violated even though it has been through the process of vote. Still though, my best point is that the law is useless as there are no laws preventing people from practicing their religion. And though many people were indeed Christian the founders of the country were actually of all religions and allowed all religions.

I blame no one for my faulty judgment as I clearly stated that I acknowledged we are alone and take a position of personal responsibility. I blamed myself and myself alone. I put myself in any and all situations in my life both good and bad. I take credit for my hard work and my faults as there is no one TO blame for my own actions, but myself. You don’t learn by blaming others. Once a position of personal responsibility is taken is when you really begin to think about your actions. And yes, this also extends beyond me as I also acknowledge those I affect both positively and negatively and simply try and do the best I can.

Try not to put words in my mouth. I never said being responsible was merely a non Christian practice. It’s actually you that have been saying things like that from the other side of the argument. I was simply describing my rational which led me to my realization that god isn’t real.

I will state again, as you have said, “It appears as if you blamed Our Lord for your own faulty judgment; this is the opposite of practicing personal responsibility.”

I clearly stated that I blamed no one but myself. Go back and read it again if you like. I understood that I did not act appropriately in order to protect myself though it was probably largely being in a state of denial I still acknowledged that I could have acted, but didn’t. I did not blame religion, but simply acknowledged my feelings about my beliefs at the time. If you want to call it blame then feel free, but since religion exists only in our minds it is still blaming me. It’s blaming my thoughts, my feelings, it’s relying on faulty knowledge that did not guide me. None of what I described means blame other then blaming myself. I’m not sure how I can make that more clear. The main problem I suppose I had is religion gave me a sense that religion is a separate entity outside of myself, my choices, my mind, and my control. I felt this logic led me to my lack of action. I know I could have easily come to that realization alone and still have been a religious man, but it just didn’t seem real anymore if religion merely exists only in my mind.

When I was religious I asked many times for god to reveal himself to me, but god never did that. I’ll work with you here though…IF god is real then perhaps he doesn’t want me to believe in him. I must say though, I firmly stand my ground on this issue. I have walked on both sides of the road and I speak with experience and perspective. When I look back to where I gained all of my knowledge of god and religion I realized that none of that knowledge came from god. ALL OF IT came from my family, church, and books. That is how I gained my impression of god; from others and not from personal experience. I’m not sure how I could have ever claimed I had a religion of my own. At best I’d say I practiced someone else’s beliefs.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:40 am

Welcome back, my friend. I see it is time to continue our debate. Well, first, you reverse religion with governments. Religion doesn't censor the truth. Do you remeber Bill Clinton, and 9/11? On the topic of governments, are you aware of the world bank's power scheme, and what's going on behind the scenes with such man-made authorities? Have you ever heard of an economic hitman? If not, perhaps reviewing it would be worth the time.

Any non-Christian actions, and we have discussed this, cannot be blamed on Christianity. What makes you think that people couldn't be unique while still having the same fundamental beliefS? Remove hate, spread love. Remove sin, spread virtue. Christianity promotes accepting everybody, regardless of background. That isn't a claim that you can use against it. While society condemns sinners, we try to save them.

You seem to have trouble with the true Christian reality. If a self-proclaimed Christian harms another person, how are they withholding Christian virtues? Yes, it is likely that people are deviating from Christianity, but then returning to it on a frequent basis. While we would prefer that they don't deviate in the first place, we are eager to have them return, each and every time. Just because doing the right thing is hard, doesn't mean you shouldn't keep trying to do it. Why do you claim that Christianity is condescending? It isn't people that we claim superiorty over, only beliefs. In fact, we actually promote equality. We don't cast sinners aside, they step aside. You seem to want us to accept sinful actions as part of Christianity. Do you realize how absurd that is?

No amount of rational can convince me differently from what I have already seen, experienced and know.


What are you referring to here?

It seems this universal harmony you seek can also be described as eliminating those that disagree. If everyone believed the same thing we would never have a fresh point of view until some intelligent, “deviant” character challenged those in charge with the guts to say, “This is what I believe and you cannot tell me otherwise!”


Imagine several theories on space travel. Now, each person can work towards their own theory, using resources and spending time, etc., or, they can all compare theories before hand, thus making sure no time will be wasted, and likewise no resource. We can all believe in the same thing, and still have 'fresh' points of view. We are all made equal, but also made individual.

Since there is no chance the world will unite as one with one religion and one set of beliefs it is safe to say that teaching tolerance of all kinds including religious tolerance is a more sensible approach to unity.


You have given up on religion, but I have not. Now, do you realize how hypocritical your statement is? By claiming that each religion is correct, you not only contradict yourself, but you also declare that by promoting indifference, you are creating unity; by promoting neglect, you are creating consideration. This is not true. If we truly care about each other, we would care about each other's beliefs. I care about people who want to commit suicide. Should we practice indifference in this scenario, and let them do whatever they want? Their desire is based on their beliefs. Now, imagine if everybody's, or at least the majority of people's beliefs didn't tolerate suicide. Wouldn't we then work together to discover a way to prevent this from occuring? I think we would. Instead, there is somebody telling their fellow human to go jump off a bridge, even as we converse. Why? Why has society allowed this to even happen? Where are their priorities?

Still though, my best point is that the law is useless as there are no laws preventing people from practicing their religion.


Actually, creationism is restricted from being taught in classrooms. And if there wasn't a law that people shouldn't work on sundays, what would stop employers from firing their employees for wanting to go to Church and worship Our Loving Lord instead of going to work on a sunday?

Regarding responsibility, I have already addressed this issue on two other threads. I do blame the devil for all of mankind's mistakes, but I also acknowledge that each and every one of us has a responsibility to everybody else. I am responsible for a murder that takes place in africa. Why? Because I have the ability to make a difference in the world. With this ability comes responsibility. We all have it. There is innocent blood on all of our hands, because a united humanity would be able to prevent murder. I am trying to unite us under the best possible beliefs, are you doing the same? Are you trying to prevent murder in africa with your current beliefs?

I did not state that you had said responsibility was a non-Christian practice. I did indicate that you implied it. You claimed that only after taking responsibility for yourself, which for some reason also involved abandoning Christianity, did your life start to improve. All I did was point out that you could have taken responsibility for yourself while still being a Christian.

I clearly stated that I blamed no one but myself. Go back and read it again if you like.


You also stated that you acted irrationally because you thought Our Loving Lord was protecting you during your irrational actions. Then you came to the conclusion that He doesn't exist, when you started acting rationally. Basically, you indirectly state that, if it wasn't for Him, you wouldn't have acted irresponsibly in the first place. Then, you also state that, only without Him, were you able to realize that you needed to act responsibly. In other words, you are saying that He held you back. It does indeed place blame upon Our Lord.

In reply to your last paragraph, fair enough. I understand what you are saying. It is interesting that you state maybe Our Lord didn't want you to believe in Him. You are a very smart man, my friend. Now, why would that be? Well, if you had a girlfriend that only loved you because everybody expected her to, than what kind of love is that? On the contrary, if her love was tested, even to the extreme, and she still stayed devoted to you, now isn't that something? Are you familiar with The Book of Job? He was very devoted to Our Loving Lord, yet He was tested anyway. In the end, after losing so much, He was rewarded double for His loss. What did he learn? Well, no matter how bad things get, you can count on Our Lord to set things right in the end. It's like asking the question, "do you only love me when times are good?". Here is a former atheist's account on how he embraced Christianity; http://www.doesgodexist.org/AboutClayton/PastLife.html.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:11 am

About creationism, since it is based on religion according to the constitution cannot be taught in a public school, but there is no law preventing it from being taught in a private school, church, or anywhere else. The reason is not because religion is being singled out, but rather the government cannot favor one belief over another so if creation is taught in a public school it is violating one of the most fundamental ideas this country was founded on.

Personally I have no problem with it being taught in public schools other then that creationists don’t want to simply teach creation, but teach it in place of science in which they are then forcing ideas and beliefs on children against the will of their families and parents and the children themselves while at the same time excluding alternate ideas which doesn’t give the child a proper foundation to make up their own mind about something. If that is how a parent wants to raise their kid then so be it, but I would not send my child to a school which practiced such a thing, but I would openly teach both creation and science and allow my child to make up his own mind.

On to the next point; I have no power to blame something on something that isn’t real. It’s like blaming my problems on Santa clause and the Easter bunny. Since the idea comes from my own mind and does not actually exist in the real world if I placed blame on God I am merely blaming my own thoughts and ideas or in other words blaming myself for relying on faulty ideas.

An analogy of this can be receiving faulty information from a doctor which I had the power to question, but chose not to only to realize later the doctor wasn’t really a doctor and gave me bad advice which I followed. Then later once I come to the realization of this I blame myself for blindly following bad advice. It’s called learning. I guess the major differerence in the analogy is that I wasn’t actually speaking with god as I did the doctor in my analogy, but rather indirectly learning about god from friends, family, books, and church.

I suppose that since I wasn’t given the choice to pick my religion when I was a kid and being that kids are impressionable and normally don’t question the things they are taught from parents and other figures of authority until they reach a certain age that I was more or less brainwashed to believe the things I did. Though I did have the power to question these things once I got older and foolishly did not. It’s not really a contradiction as I don’t really blame my family for teaching me these things as they still do not realize they may very well be wrong as they have not questioned religion as I have.

The most plain and simple answer is I am the ruler of my own life, no one has power over me and it is my fault and only my fault for blindly following an idea that I now believe is wrong. I see the confusion as I explain what led me to my own wrong choices, but don’t read into that as me blaming religion or god. I saw the error in my ways and now follow a different philosophy on life; one I believe guides me better then religion ever did and one that I know is real unlike religion that follows phrases like, “Blind faith” meaning there is no proof, but trust this anyway. It seems very binary to me; either blindly follow or question.

Anyway, I would never tell another person their beliefs are wrong though I am not afraid the contradict another’s ideas especially if an accusation is made about my own beliefs. The way I see it is who am I to tell others to follow me; I don’t have all the answers, I don’t know what lies beyond this world, I don’t know everything there is to know about the physical world, the universe, or if there is some sort of spiritual world out there. I don’t know what happens to us when we die whether we continue on as a spirit, are reincarnated or if we simply cease to exist. I don’t know if there is or isn’t a god and therefore am grossly under qualified to tell someone that their religious beliefs or beliefs in general no matter how much they very are right or wrong nor can anyone else in the world.

The thing I most distrust about religion is that religion does claim to have all the answers. Where outside of religion the world is a mystery as far as where we came from, why are we here, how the universe began, and all of those most basic questions that instead of saying well we were all created by god which I do not believe there is evidence of that at least not yet in this search for answers we may discover we were created by god or we may discover something completely different. The point is once a persons mind is made up about something like this then the real answers can no longer be found.

This reminds me of a famous quote, “I am looking for a lot of men who have an infinite capacity to not know what can't be done.” ~Henry Ford

Basically means once convinced something can’t be done you no longer have the capacity to try every possible thing. Your mind becomes closed. It might be said that blind faith can leave you blind.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:00 pm

The government favors it's own beliefs over other government's beliefs every day. Otherwise, we would not need independant governments, since they would all be the same. So, why is it such a stretch to support one religion over every religion? How is that any different than supporting one constitution over another? A country can choose a religion and still have other religions be practiced within it, just like it can have individuals within it that disagree with it's constitution. It is hypocrisy.

You state that by teaching creationism in place of evolutionism, that the schools are forcing religious beliefs on the children. How is that different than the current system forcing non-religious beliefs on children? It is just more hypocrisy.

Christianity isn't about 'blind faith'. Do you think Our Loving Lord desires for you to follow Him without realizing why? If so, that would negate the whole purpose of the devil; the lesson of right and wrong. We who have faith likewise have rational reason for that faith. If we did not, then Christianity would have faded a long time ago. The teachings of The Bible are profound and exclusive. Our communication with Our Loving Lord is likewise. The fact that science has not proven The Bible wrong, but has indeed added authenticity to it's accounts only furthers are rational reason for believing in Christianity. It is desired of Our Lord that His followers seek the truth at all times, as with His parables. He could have stated their meanings more easier for the people to understand, but He did not. He did, however, reward His followers by teaching them the true meanings. Face value is not what Our Lord desires. Knowing the truth is. So, seeking the truth about Christianity is as much a part of Christianity as having faith.

You don't trust Christianity because it claims to have all the answers. Actually, it doesn't. It does claim to have the necessary ones. As for telling other people that their beliefs are wrong, you do that all the time. We all do. Sometimes we say, "this is just my opinion, but...", ye,t it is still a different point of view being offered in contrast to an original one. Examing other people's beliefs and pointing out their flaws is not a bad thing. It is actually progressively positive, as it removes fiction and replaces it with fact. One belief is not equal to another, since 2 + 2 equals 4 and not 3; there are undeniable facts which prove alternate conclusions wrong.

Basically means once convinced something can’t be done you no longer have the capacity to try every possible thing. Your mind becomes closed. It might be said that blind faith can leave you blind.


Do you search to see if 2 + 2 equals 3 and not 4? What's the point, since you already know that 4 is the answer? Likewise, once Christians have their answer, there is no more point in trying to find another one. This is not blind faith or close-mindedness, but surety. I know that Our Lord exists the same way that I know white isn't black. You may not have been given such surety yet, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You know, you're quote applies to your personal beliefs as well. Perhaps it is not a matter of blind faith, but blind doubt. You may be already convinced that Our Loving Lord doesn't exist, so any further evidence to the contrary might be immediately disregarded by you without a fair consideration, or at least a fair investigation.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:19 am

I have read everything you have written, but think we have argued the subject to death so I won’t comment any further, but I found something you said intriguing.

You ask if a person would search for proof that 2+2 = 4. If a person were to ask you how you know 2 + 2 = 4 how would you answer? Do you even have an answer as to why 2 + 2 = 4. Actually people have written out proofs that 2 + 2 = 4, but I believe it is more popular to ask if 1+1 = 2. Funny as that seems it is actually necessary to prove that math is correct and numbers are correct. It has less to do with counting things and more to do with treating numbers themselves as object such as you have done here by simply asking the question does 2+2 = 4. I have sat through a rather long class in regards to this, but it is necessary not so much to prove that 2 + 2 = 4, but rather to prove other larger problems in math correct or incorrect. The conclusion isn’t clear cut and ends up being more about a larger picture rather then the original simple question. Very complicated, but if it was inconclusive then what? I think the simplicity of the question is distracting. It might be off point, but I’m sure you can find some things about this on the internet if you have the patients to sit through something so boring.

It might be obvious, but why assume when the conclusion might actually surprise you. For example, did you know that 0.999… is exactly = 1? 0.999… meaning an infinite number of 9’s follow. There is mathematical proof, but the reason is that there is no number which falls between 0.999… and 1 therefore they are the same number. This is much simpler, but also illustrates that obvious things still need to be well understood, in this case coming to a counter intuitive conclusion.

Funny you use that example because of its simplicity without realizing the complexity of the question. It is well known that 2 + 2 = 4, but would you be able to write out proof that conclussively proved it. There is a necessity to understand why it equals 4 Just as there is a necesity to prove and understand life in general and all that you encounter.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby amyhikel » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:51 pm

operatormike wrote:....
So that is the reason for premonitions sometimes, to warn us. Usually it is just a glimpse of a scene or a image of something that is in the dream...from the immediate future..then when you see it in real life, you recall the dream. This has happened to me and made me understand the dream better...and its meaning for me in my life..like what I needed to do.
....



First off, I just read this whole thing- hilarious! I choose not to get involved in the debate between Believer and the rest of you.. I think it's been exhausted and deserves an end. I think Believer7 may be worn out as well..

SamZee, I like what you have to say. I want to know more about your beliefs and where you were introduced to the concepts of the "Law of One."

But choosing to address this one quoted portion to incite new commentary and fresh opinions...
What do you think the deal with De Ja Vu is? I get it frequently and it's such a mystifying experience I often wonder about it. I've turned around the idea that it's kinda like what mike was talking about with the premonitions. Maybe some dreams are prophetic, not so in terms of like huge, significant events, but just of the common happenings of life (as often is the subject of dejavu "memories"). And then when you get to that point in waking life your like "oh. I've seen this." Maybe there's no like great profound purpose of having a prophecy of hearing someone say your name while writing a letter or whatever your dejavu experience may be, but maybe it's like it's a sign that we all have psychic capabilities, and maybe they could be developed to actually see the crucial happenings? i have no basis for this.. and have done very little research on the subject.. Maybe you can enlighten me? I realize this has nothing to do with the topic, but I want to hear your opinions. Who knows maybe one of you can tie it into foreordained life
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby amyhikel » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:52 pm

OH wow, the debate is still raging. I thought it ended at the posting on the 21st. lollllll
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:34 am

amyhikel wrote:SamZee, I like what you have to say. I want to know more about your beliefs and where you were introduced to the concepts of the "Law of One."
I would be delighted! :D
I shall PM you in the near future regarding that. =]


I can't say I've spent an enormous amount of time pondering "déjà vu," but I do have some pretty good ideas surrounding it. I don't get it that often but it never escapes me when I'm actually experiencing something for a second time. But we're talking about instances in which there was no previous experience. I think the key to understanding Déjà vu is having a sufficient understanding of time and how psychic ability really works. Psychic ability is relative. Everyone has some degree of it, and everyone has the potential to develop it. I'm sure you knew that already but what you may not know is how it actually works. This next point is highly focal. Psychic ability is not the perception of outside things. It is the reception of metaphysical energy just as your conscious thoughts are. And no, your intellectual thoughts don't actually originate from your brain. Your brain is only the physical organ that translates the conscious energy of mind. Within everyone's mind, there exists "veiling." The veil exists between your conscious, subconscious, and superconscious mind. From what I understand, conscious energy flows from the soul towards the veil, but only a small amount of it actually penetrates the veil. The amount that inevitably penetrates the veil in everyone's case is what creates the conscious mind. Third-density incarnation is such that we're born with only the awareness of the body and conscious mind within this physical illusion we call the "space-time continuum." And so, with the handicap of the veil, we seek to know ourselves, our "separate" identity. It's when we seek the Self in all things that connections are made between the veiled mind and the infinite creation. That's what psychic ability is. It's the connection between your mind and the rest of your true identity, which is the universe. To put it in much simpler terms, think of your brain as your mind and your body as the universe. When you get a paper cut, your body sends electrical signals to the brain via the nervous system. Your brain then interprets those signals as pain and so, you become consciously aware of it. At a much deeper level, psychic ability functions the same way. Your best friend gets in a car accident and suddenly you worry about him/her. You may not know why you're worrying, but you are. It's because your best friend is you. They're a part of your identity that you're connected to and so, you're more receptive to his/her energy... which is actually your energy, which is the energy of all. And so when you get a paper cut (the car accident) your body (the universe) sends a pain signal (metaphysical energy) to your brain. (your mind) It's two different levels of the same thing.

I know this may be difficult to understand but just bear with me. So if you adopt the idea that consciousness penetrates all time and space, then you may begin to understand how it is that we sometimes experience déjà vu. When you experience something in the future, your perception of the experience penetrates all time and space. And so, sometimes there are instances in which your thoughts of the future reach you in the present. That's why déjà vu feels the way it does. As if you already had this exact experience. =]
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:06 pm

amyhikel wrote:
operatormike wrote:....
So that is the reason for premonitions sometimes, to warn us. Usually it is just a glimpse of a scene or a image of something that is in the dream...from the immediate future..then when you see it in real life, you recall the dream. This has happened to me and made me understand the dream better...and its meaning for me in my life..like what I needed to do.
....



First off, I just read this whole thing- hilarious! I choose not to get involved in the debate between Believer and the rest of you.. I think it's been exhausted and deserves an end. I think Believer7 may be worn out as well..

SamZee, I like what you have to say. I want to know more about your beliefs and where you were introduced to the concepts of the "Law of One."

But choosing to address this one quoted portion to incite new commentary and fresh opinions...
What do you think the deal with De Ja Vu is? I get it frequently and it's such a mystifying experience I often wonder about it. I've turned around the idea that it's kinda like what mike was talking about with the premonitions. Maybe some dreams are prophetic, not so in terms of like huge, significant events, but just of the common happenings of life (as often is the subject of dejavu "memories"). And then when you get to that point in waking life your like "oh. I've seen this." Maybe there's no like great profound purpose of having a prophecy of hearing someone say your name while writing a letter or whatever your dejavu experience may be, but maybe it's like it's a sign that we all have psychic capabilities, and maybe they could be developed to actually see the crucial happenings? i have no basis for this.. and have done very little research on the subject.. Maybe you can enlighten me? I realize this has nothing to do with the topic, but I want to hear your opinions. Who knows maybe one of you can tie it into foreordained life




I have actually heard an interesting theory of what Déjà vu is. Don’t know how true this is, but sounded reasonable to me.

So the way you normally experience things is you experience, perceive, and then store the experience to memory. With Déjà vu something else happens; you experience, store to memory, then perceive so since the experience is coming from the memory part of your brain you feel as though you remember what you are currently experiencing. This is due to a slight malfunction of the processes your brain uses to experience things which is then quickly corrected. Either that or it’s a glitch in the matrix.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:58 pm

heartsdreamer wrote:
Daniel24 wrote:
heartsdreamer wrote:Not!

If everything that is preordained then all the future's causes and conditions should already be present. If that were so, nothing could stop them from expressing themselves at once and that's illogical.

So we have free will :eat:


Don't know if anyone has said this already, but free will being defined as an uninfluenced choice is limited to the amount of influence in your life.

For example being pressured to smoke a cigarette and then choosing to smoke. Would you still have made that same choice without all the pressure to do it? If your choice is influenced is it free?


"I choose, therefore I am." Life is about choices, isn't it?
"I think, therefore I am." This one doesn't fly with me because we're not our thoughts.

If you're pressured to smoke you have a two choices: refuse or accept. What about if you're forced to smoke at gunpoint? Do you still have your free will? Most likely not but there's a fuzzy line here. This one I let the philosophers debate it.

Does a prisoner loses his free will while in prison?

Before every act of volition to execute an action, our brains bursts out with lots of activity 400 milliseconds (fMRI analysis) before the moment we decide to act. Amazing isn't it? This is a fact!

Within these 400 ms there is a 40 millisecond window labeled a "conscious veto" to help us stop the action we wanted to commit. It seems there's an unconscious activity in the brain prior to each act of volition. This is very strange--it seems to defeat our sense of free will but it doesn't. What causes this unconscious activity? Is consciousness prior to this brain activity?
Is consciousness prior to our "will?" It seems to.

There's a heated debate going on on this.



I have always believed we have free will, but I have also believed the only threat to that is other people. A person in prison is there by choice as he/she made the choice that put them in there whether or not that was the intention. Just as if someone chooses to slack off at work then they may choose to forfeit their job when they get fired for it.

My choice to use smoking as an example was to keep it simple, but also to touch on the subject of influenced choices. One slightly more complicated might be how the media uses fear, anger, loaded questions, one sided debates, lies, misleading statements and whatever other weapons they use in order to force their point in order to guide public opinion. Such as this last presidential election I found it very difficult to decide what information I was seeing was real, fake, lies, half lies or whatever. The choices I made for who and what to vote for during the election was vastly influenced. I’m not sure I can tell you if I made a knowledgeable choice or not as it was not possible for me to look up every piece of information I came across and in the end I did make a choice, but how much of that choice was really mine.

That’s interesting what you wrote about our brain. Makes me wonder how often I change my mind at the last moment. I am confused about the final quote you write, “Is consciousness prior to our will?” I’m having trouble separating the differences between “consciousness” and “will”.

Consciousness meaning being aware of your own existence, surroundings and whatnot and will meaning the power of the mind over its actions. In a way it makes sense because you don’t need to exercise will power until needed as in making some sort of choice. I guess I’m not entirely sure what it means.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby sophia262 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:44 pm

In this world, when an evil act is comitted, it is commited by a human. God, in my opinion, doen not kidnap children, nor does he rape, beat, cheat, rob, lie, or commit any other earthly attrocity. People do.
It is not God who places a gold mine that leaches cionide into a river. Nor does he give blacklung to a coal miner, or braindamage to a child exposed to pesticides for too long. These are acts of humans.
Humans make this world what it is, good or bad.
This statement might make me seem like an athiest, but I can assure you I am not. I mearly would never be able to pick up a rosery and pray again if I believed for a second that the beloved Lord I was praying to would pre-destin anyone to be slaughtered in a war or be murdered. I can live, however, with people causing attrocities in this world.
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Is our destined end or way
But to act, that each to-morrow
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Still achieving, still pursuing,
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:38 pm

sophia262 wrote:
In this world, when an evil act is comitted, it is commited by a human. God, in my opinion, doen not kidnap children, nor does he rape, beat, cheat, rob, lie, or commit any other earthly attrocity. People do.

It is not God who places a gold mine that leaches cionide into a river. Nor does he give blacklung to a coal miner, or braindamage to a child exposed to pesticides for too long. These are acts of humans.

Humans make this world what it is, good or bad.

This statement might make me seem like an athiest, but I can assure you I am not. I mearly would never be able to pick up a rosery and pray again if I believed for a second that the beloved Lord I was praying to would pre-destin anyone to be slaughtered in a war or be murdered. I can live, however, with people causing attrocities in this world.


Outstanding! :clap: :cheers:

I'm not an atheist either.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:06 am

Daniel24, you already know how 2 + 2 = 4. That is why I posted it. It could also be said that 2 + 2 = 22, and while this can be true as well, it is only true when you take it out of context. 0.999... does not equal the same as 1. There is a difference. 0.999... is infinite, while 1 is finite. Imagine 1 apple. Now imagine an 0.999... apple. The second apple would need to be without an end. This is simply not possible. The apple would stretch out forever, while still being incomplete. So, somebody can say, "what's the difference?", but there is an answer. A truth can be irrefutable.

I understand that you want to cease this topic. Obliged. I hope you have a pleasant future, my friend.

Sophia262, it is a pleasure to hear from you. I cherish all confessions of Christianity. It is true, in one way, that Our Lord is not responsible for the evil that resides among us. However, in another way He is responsible, since He causes existence to be. So, why allow evil to exist? For elementary evolution education. This may seem a harsh lesson, but it could be a lot worse. Here is a metaphor that I believe explains the reason for evil's existence.

"If a father tells his child not to touch a hot stove because it will hurt them, the child only has their father's opinion to base their decision upon. However, if the child betrays their father and touches that stove, they will learn exactly why they shouldn't touch it. They will also learn to trust their father. We, as a people, represent that child. The good in us wants to obey our father, but the bad in us wants to touch that stove. If the good is allowed to prevail, the child still only has their father's opinion to base their decision upon. While that may be enough for them, they miss out on three essential lessons; knowing for a fact that their father was telling the truth, and experiencing exactly what it is their father doesn't want to happen to them. Finally, there is the lesson of the bad in us being taught the consequence of rebellion. Therefore, if the bad is allowed to prevail, all three essential lessons are learned, and even though the innocent good in us suffers as well as the bad, the good is full of forgiveness, and grateful for the lessons."
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:54 am

1/3 = 0.333…
2/3= 0.666…
3/3= 0.999… and 1

x = 0.999…
10x = 9.999…
10x – x = 9.999… – 0.999…
9x = 9
x = 1

The theoretical proof is that since in 0.999… the 9’s are infinite you cannot add another number to it without going over 1 which means there is not a number which falls between 0.999… and 1 which means 0.999… and 1 are the same number. This is not a guess; this is mathematical fact. What if you cut an apple into 3 equally sized pieces? When you put them back together you have 1/3rd + 1/3rd + 1/3rd or 0.333… + 0.333… + 0.333… which is equal to 0.999… or 1 apple. You are correct; it all depends on how you explain it

I gave two mathematical proofs and a theoretical explanation. The point I was making with this is that once you make up your mind about something you close your mind and you cease to learn knew things because you disregard the fact that you might be wrong about something. This is a point you have clearly illustrated for me. And yes, I know that 2+2=4, but I also understand that the only reason I know that is because someone else told me and just because it is simple doesn’t mean we can simply assume it is correct. We require proof just as in something that is complex and difficult to understand. You assumed I was wrong about 0.999… being = 1, yet I have posted proof I am correct.

There is no harm in questioning the world unless you are afraid that you might come to an alternate conclusion. Besides, not everything is so simple. Why assume god is real when that isn’t even a simple answer which is why not everyone believes in that sort of thing and yet I doubt you can find so many people that would refute the idea that 2 + 2 = 4. That’s the big difference in your reasoning. The answer to how we exist is much more complex and needs to be questioned. If in the end we do indeed come to an alternate conclusion which is irrefutable then why continue to follow something that has been proven wrong. On the other hand all of our questioning might bring us back to where we started which is that god is real which means you and many others were correct all along.

The comparison you have made between the simplicity that 2 + 2 = 4 and questioning god to be real is incompatible. One is simple and provable and the other is neither of those.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby sophia262 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:37 pm

7Believer wrote:"If a father tells his child not to touch a hot stove because it will hurt them, the child only has their father's opinion to base their decision upon. However, if the child betrays their father and touches that stove, they will learn exactly why they shouldn't touch it. They will also learn to trust their father. We, as a people, represent that child. The good in us wants to obey our father, but the bad in us wants to touch that stove. If the good is allowed to prevail, the child still only has their father's opinion to base their decision upon. While that may be enough for them, they miss out on three essential lessons; knowing for a fact that their father was telling the truth, and experiencing exactly what it is their father doesn't want to happen to them. Finally, there is the lesson of the bad in us being taught the consequence of rebellion. Therefore, if the bad is allowed to prevail, all three essential lessons are learned, and even though the innocent good in us suffers as well as the bad, the good is full of forgiveness, and grateful for the lessons."

First off, can I just point out that the father in this example seems very negligent. Either the child is old enough to know that glowing red metal=BAD or the child should not be let near a hot stove in the first place, with or without supervision. I understand that this was supposed to be an example, and that the meaning you were trying to convey is that people have to learn from their mistakes, but I feel that, with all due respect, this example simplifies the topic and meaning a bit much.
Also, this example implies that God allows evil to happen in this world so that we can learn from it. So tell me, what exactly have you learned from all the poverty and jenoside in this world? For me, it has not been a very good teacher, and I feel nither wiser nor more prepaired to choose good over evil now that I know and understand these attrocities. I only know the aproximate extent of what one human being is willing to do to another. Nothing more, and nothing less.
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Preordained? read this!

Postby kristol8521 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:54 pm

I found out when I was 20 that yes indeed things are already preordained.
I was working in a small salon called Hair Care Harmony at the time.
One night I had a dream that I was standing in front of the family rooms huge picture window.
I looked out the window and saw the house across the street.
Just as I was looking at the house, a big flame burst out of a garbage can sitting in front of their garage door.
The whole garage just became engulfed in flames.
In the dream I grabbed the phone and kept trying to call 911
Every time I thought the dispatcher answered, a woman would say "thank you for calling Hair Care Harmony"
I would hang up and dial 911 over and over and each time I got the same woman answering and thanking me for calling the salon.
In the dream I finally give up with the phone and I see the whole house in flames.
About a week later I am driving home from work (Hair Care Harmony) and as I am approaching my road I see Police and Fire trucks everywhere.
They have my road closed off and there is a blazing fire, not the house across the street but the house directly behind the one I saw in the dream.
Later on I found out the fire started in the garage due to the owners storing pool chemicals and other chemicals together in metal garbage cans in the garage.
The fire could not be controlled because they couldn't truck the water in fast enough due to having only well water and no hydrants at the time.
The house was a complete loss.
This dream was beyond coincidental.
Things have to be preplanned, hopefully we can affect the fate of it though.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:09 pm

You had a psychic dream, it happens. Seeing the future isn't viewing a stone-written destiny, it's capturing a glimpse of one probable outcome. :2cents:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:13 pm

SamZee wrote:You had a psychic dream, it happens. Seeing the future isn't viewing a stone-written destiny, it's capturing a glimpse of one probable outcome. :2cents:

I agree with SamZee on this.

Throught 'premonition dreams' do happen (sometimes every once in a while, somtimes you call upon them through meditation, etc.), they only show you a possible outcome, post probably what could happen if you either changed or you continued on your current path.
However like all dreams you should not attempt to get exact-based interpretations; you may be surprised that what you expected to happen may not happen at all or may happen in a different way.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:07 pm

:clap:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:02 pm

You assumed I was wrong about 0.999… being = 1, yet I have posted proof I am correct.

The comparison you have made between the simplicity that 2 + 2 = 4 and questioning god to be real is incompatible. One is simple and provable and the other is neither of those.


0.3 infinite is used as an equation for 1/3 only because people believe no other convenient or accurate illustration exists. How about 1/3 = {3 - 2}? 1/3 + 1/3 = {3 - 1}. 1/3 x 10 = {30 - 20}. Aren't these equations more accurate? An apple split in three has three 'whole' pieces, no incomplete pieces. Each seperate piece can be defined as {3 - 2}, because if it had 2 more equal pieces it would be complete; {3 - 2 + 2 = 3}. This equation is finite and also technically accurate, while 0.333... is infinite, and therefore technically not accurate. The 0.9 infinite = 1 equation is forced to be held as accurate for convenience's sake, but it isn't necessary. At least from my perspective.

As for the purpose of my 2 + 2 = 4 equation, I didn't post that as a comparison to questioning Our Lord's existence; I posted it to explain how once you've discovered the truth, there is no need to seek out a lie. If Our Lord managed to convince you that He was real, then why would you search for a reason not to believe Him?

First off, can I just point out that the father in this example seems very negligent. Either the child is old enough to know that glowing red metal=BAD or the child should not be let near a hot stove in the first place, with or without supervision.

So tell me, what exactly have you learned from all the poverty and jenoside in this world?


Like I have explained in the example, how would the child know exactly what it was that it's father didn't want to happen to it, without experiencing it first-hand? Likewise, how would the child know that his father was telling the truth? And finally, how would the child learn the consequences of disobeying the father? All of these lessons can be learned in one simple step; letting the child touch the stove.

Of course, the child could just believe their father and not touch it, but then what happens when that child has a child of it's own, and that child has a child of it's own, too, etc..? All the future generations have to base their decisions on is the word of a long dead man. This is exactly what critics of Christians accuse them of doing; following a blind faith. Although Our Lord desires our complete obeisance, He also desires our understanding; otherwise, we are simply robots following directions.

What have I learned from the world's suffering? That even if you are good, somebody who is bad can make you suffer; so in order to secure a good life, you need to make sure that nobody is bad. This is an important lesson; seek universal harmony, not indifference and negligence.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby nicco99 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:19 pm

You guys and your long posts.... -.-

neh?

seems to me as though some of you think touching a stove =bad which= evil. not all bad things = evil. maybe they're not even bad. that touching a stove thing with the opinion of the father... could be thought of as an obstacle. there are like a million obstacles in ones life which one must overcome. and each one that you overcome is then learnt from. if the child touches the stove..then that was the childs decision to do so. the child could of put some belief into the father and not touched it but obviously not all children will do that. the same as believing in god.

arrhmmm.... i think our future is mapped out for us. but no one knows exactly what is planned. you make your choices for a reason.. and that reason will lead to your preordained future. you can't go back in time so you can't relive the moments where you made your choice so you can change it. and you can't go into the future to see what is to come so you can change it.
the dreams or whatever you get that shows you the future and warns you about it. whether you warn the people or whatever about it or not.. what is to come is what is to come. and nobody can change that. we live in the now so only the choices we make now will affect us now. whatever is in store for us in the future is unknown.
you can say pretty much that it isn't preordained but no one will ever know for sure. you can live your life to the very end and reflect at everything that has happened to you.. and ask yourself whether that was really what was meant to happen or was it just random. but no one can really answer that.

people are put onto earth for a reason. is what i believe. i read somewhere above that someone put something about people getting killed and living horrible lives and what not. but like you will never know whether their lives were horrible unless you lived them. if someone dies at a young age.. yes it is tragic..but it happened for a reason. and that reason we might not ever know. maybe it was to teach someone else a lesson.

i'm also a firm believer in karma. it is my greatest friend and also my greatest enemy. >.< what you give out is what you get back. doesn't always happen instantly but will happen eventually. when something bad happens to me.. i always question what i did wrong to receive it.

i am terribly sorry for my badly put together sentence structure and my not so smart words..and for probably making no sense or even actually if i'm not being on the right topic and what not. i suck at writing things that are one my mind. i'm better saying these things verbally. :lol:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:01 pm

7Believer wrote:
You assumed I was wrong about 0.999… being = 1, yet I have posted proof I am correct.

The comparison you have made between the simplicity that 2 + 2 = 4 and questioning god to be real is incompatible. One is simple and provable and the other is neither of those.


0.3 infinite is used as an equation for 1/3 only because people believe no other convenient or accurate illustration exists. How about 1/3 = {3 - 2}? 1/3 + 1/3 = {3 - 1}. 1/3 x 10 = {30 - 20}. Aren't these equations more accurate? An apple split in three has three 'whole' pieces, no incomplete pieces. Each seperate piece can be defined as {3 - 2}, because if it had 2 more equal pieces it would be complete; {3 - 2 + 2 = 3}. This equation is finite and also technically accurate, while 0.333... is infinite, and therefore technically not accurate. The 0.9 infinite = 1 equation is forced to be held as accurate for convenience's sake, but it isn't necessary. At least from my perspective.

As for the purpose of my 2 + 2 = 4 equation, I didn't post that as a comparison to questioning Our Lord's existence; I posted it to explain how once you've discovered the truth, there is no need to seek out a lie. If Our Lord managed to convince you that He was real, then why would you search for a reason not to believe Him?


Well, since my math is 100% correct it is impossible to be more correct unless my method is not in a simplified form which it is. At best you can come to the same conclusion by a different method.

0.3 infinite must be used or other things will be incorrect. For example; what is 1/3 – 0.333. The answer is greater then 0 so 1/3 is not equal to 0.333. Therefore 1/3 must equal 0.333… with infinite 3’s or you come to an incorrect answer every time.

I understand what you are trying to explain, but your math is not entirely correct.

1/3 = 3-2
0.333… = 1 This is not a correct statement

1/3 + 1/3 = 3-1
0.666… = 2 This is not a correct statement

1/3 * 10 = 30 – 20
3.333… = 10 This is not a correct statement

I believe what you are attempting to say is you are eliminating the fraction by treating 1/3 as a whole. So if you cut an apple into 3 evenly sliced pieces you can treat one slice as 1 whole. I think for this to be accurate you must define a couple of variables.

If we divide 1 apple into 3 slices we have:
X = 1 apple
Y = 1 slice of an apple

Therefore 3 slices of apple must = 3Y and X = 3Y. Now we can continue on with our counting of apples and apple slices without using fractions. The math is not correct using your method though I did understand it and it did make sense. It is simply represented inaccurately.

It’s sort of pointless to do that since within the fraction it tells you how many slices you have. 1/3 = 1 of 3 slices of apple. If you only have 1 slice of apple it is still 1 part of an apple even though you treat the 1 slice as a whole number. It is still accurate to call 1 slice of apple 1 part of a whole apple even though you currently are not treating it as such possibly for the convenience of counting the apple slices you have.

So is 0.333 + 0.333 + 0.333 = 1? The answer is 0.999 so without the infinity the outcome is a number lower then 1 which would mean that 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 3/3 = 1, but 1/3 + 1/3 + 0.333 would not equal the same. They are not the same number unless the infinite 3’s follow. Math is very precise and especially when dealing with very small things the accuracy is necessary otherwise you can simply round out an entire apple slice in your case or from an engineering stand point round out something important in the design process making everything inaccurate. Not just that, but when doing long calculations an error such as this at the beginning will continue through any following calculation making everything inaccurate giving a completely wrong final answer. So the infinite following numbers in these fractions are not simply for convenience sake. It is very necessary.

I understand what you meant by the 2+2 = 4 example. I was simply pointing out how you can possibly know you’ve come to a correct answer unless you have questioned them. Math is easy to question and prove or disprove, but the creation of life, the earth, and the universe is not so simple. I guess I just don’t see the harm in questioning the things I’ve been told and taught by others.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:51 pm

nicco99 wrote:You guys and your long posts.... -.-

neh?

seems to me as though some of you think touching a stove =bad which= evil. not all bad things = evil. maybe they're not even bad. that touching a stove thing with the opinion of the father... could be thought of as an obstacle. there are like a million obstacles in ones life which one must overcome. and each one that you overcome is then learnt from. if the child touches the stove..then that was the childs decision to do so. the child could of put some belief into the father and not touched it but obviously not all children will do that. the same as believing in god.

arrhmmm.... i think our future is mapped out for us. but no one knows exactly what is planned. you make your choices for a reason.. and that reason will lead to your preordained future. you can't go back in time so you can't relive the moments where you made your choice so you can change it. and you can't go into the future to see what is to come so you can change it.
the dreams or whatever you get that shows you the future and warns you about it. whether you warn the people or whatever about it or not.. what is to come is what is to come. and nobody can change that. we live in the now so only the choices we make now will affect us now. whatever is in store for us in the future is unknown.
you can say pretty much that it isn't preordained but no one will ever know for sure. you can live your life to the very end and reflect at everything that has happened to you.. and ask yourself whether that was really what was meant to happen or was it just random. but no one can really answer that.

people are put onto earth for a reason. is what i believe. i read somewhere above that someone put something about people getting killed and living horrible lives and what not. but like you will never know whether their lives were horrible unless you lived them. if someone dies at a young age.. yes it is tragic..but it happened for a reason. and that reason we might not ever know. maybe it was to teach someone else a lesson.

i'm also a firm believer in karma. it is my greatest friend and also my greatest enemy. >.< what you give out is what you get back. doesn't always happen instantly but will happen eventually. when something bad happens to me.. i always question what i did wrong to receive it.

i am terribly sorry for my badly put together sentence structure and my not so smart words..and for probably making no sense or even actually if i'm not being on the right topic and what not. i suck at writing things that are one my mind. i'm better saying these things verbally. :lol:


There are many things you have posted I can relate to in one way or another. What some people call preordained I think is something else. There are theories in science which state that the universe is made up of 10 dimensions and contained within those dimensions is every possible choice and outcome you could possibly experience. Therefore every time you are presented a choice to make at the instance you are making the choice both realities simultaneously exist as if you made both choices and at the point you make the choice that one reality snaps into existence. The thing is though; what happened to the other choice you didn’t make. It still exists somewhere in the universe. In an alternate reality you made that choice also and are living that choice out to the end along with any other choice you have ever made or didn’t make.

So to me preordained means we are presented with a universe that has within it already every possibility, past, present, and future, but we still have the ability to follow whatever path we desire of the near infinite paths we are presented with. I hope that made sense.

I believe that we do have a lot to learn in this life such as the example with the stove that 7believer posted who is probably really tired of debating with me at this point since the discussion has turned to math, but I do agree that we learn from these mistakes, but my opinion of why that happens differs a bit. We learn from it, but it is but one of all the many random things that enter into our lives and nothing more. I was never fond of using the words good or evil to describe things especially since what is evil to one is good to another. The words really have no definition. For example, one can say a kid burning his hand on a hot stove is good since he learned a valuable lesson in doing so. One can call it evil because it hurt the kid. It’s a matter of opinion, but some things can be agreed on more then others as well. It’s a philosophical question really.

What you call Karma I don’t really have a good word for right off hand. I think that someone who is always negative reflects that kind of attitude onto others and back to him/herself. You treat people badly and in return are treated badly. There are many phrases such as burning your bridges, you reap what you sow. These are two that come to mind anyway. Any bad choice can come back to haunt you. I still consider them all learning experiences similar to burning your hand on a hot stove as a kid and learning not to do that again.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby sophia262 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:15 pm

I can't really tell anyone what to believe, I can only tell others what I believe.
The way I see it, our present and future are made up of a series of choices, be they made by us or others. These choices then have results which all work together to create an outcome. These choices, when they are made, may seem insignifigant and not at all connected to the outcome they create. An example would be:
A person chooses to walk to work instead of drive on a snowy day. Another person who lives nearby chooses not to use snow tires or chains, and just drives without them. Another person/group of people in that cities government cut the funding for the little trucks that poor salt on the roads, so now they are all icy. Now it could be argued that there were many more choices that went into this cinario, the town's founders choosing to settel in that cold area instead of a warmer one ect, but it was the combination of these three choices that make the person driving loose control of their car and hit the person walking to work. These choices seemed unconected and small when they were being made, but when looked at this way they led to a person dying. Had anyone in this example made a diffrent choice, the outcome might have been different. This is based off of the theory called the butterfly effect, in which small, seemingly random events can have large, far-reaching effects. And now, as a closing argument, a random emoticon :drumming:
Not enjoyment, and not sorrow,
Is our destined end or way
But to act, that each to-morrow
Find us farther than to-day
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait. -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:05 am

sophia262 wrote:I can't really tell anyone what to believe, I can only tell others what I believe.
The way I see it, our present and future are made up of a series of choices, be they made by us or others. These choices then have results which all work together to create an outcome. These choices, when they are made, may seem insignifigant and not at all connected to the outcome they create. An example would be:
A person chooses to walk to work instead of drive on a snowy day. Another person who lives nearby chooses not to use snow tires or chains, and just drives without them. Another person/group of people in that cities government cut the funding for the little trucks that poor salt on the roads, so now they are all icy. Now it could be argued that there were many more choices that went into this cinario, the town's founders choosing to settel in that cold area instead of a warmer one ect, but it was the combination of these three choices that make the person driving loose control of their car and hit the person walking to work. These choices seemed unconected and small when they were being made, but when looked at this way they led to a person dying. Had anyone in this example made a diffrent choice, the outcome might have been different. This is based off of the theory called the butterfly effect, in which small, seemingly random events can have large, far-reaching effects. And now, as a closing argument, a random emoticon :drumming:

Seems like a good theory to me. Good work! :goldblob:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby nicco99 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:37 pm

Daniel24 wrote:There are many things you have posted I can relate to in one way or another. What some people call preordained I think is something else. There are theories in science which state that the universe is made up of 10 dimensions and contained within those dimensions is every possible choice and outcome you could possibly experience. Therefore every time you are presented a choice to make at the instance you are making the choice both realities simultaneously exist as if you made both choices and at the point you make the choice that one reality snaps into existence. The thing is though; what happened to the other choice you didn’t make. It still exists somewhere in the universe. In an alternate reality you made that choice also and are living that choice out to the end along with any other choice you have ever made or didn’t make.

So to me preordained means we are presented with a universe that has within it already every possibility, past, present, and future, but we still have the ability to follow whatever path we desire of the near infinite paths we are presented with. I hope that made sense.


that's pretty much along the lines of what i was thinking ..in a way..
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby sophia262 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:33 pm

Oh and also the concept of sin would automatically controdict a preordained world. Most people who believe in some form of god can agree that bad actions will eventually, in this life or another one, be punished. However, if this god-figure makes it our destiny to sin, how can we be heald responsable for that? Even with religon out of the equation, most societies have punishments for wrongdoing in the forms of fines, jails, death penalties, ect. These people are being punished, not because it was writen out that they would break the law, but because they CHOOSE to break the law. If pre-destination were true, how can we hold anyone responsable for their accions?
Not enjoyment, and not sorrow,
Is our destined end or way
But to act, that each to-morrow
Find us farther than to-day
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait. -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:04 pm

sophia262 wrote:Oh and also the concept of sin would automatically controdict a preordained world. Most people who believe in some form of god can agree that bad actions will eventually, in this life or another one, be punished. However, if this god-figure makes it our destiny to sin, how can we be heald responsable for that? Even with religon out of the equation, most societies have punishments for wrongdoing in the forms of fines, jails, death penalties, ect. These people are being punished, not because it was writen out that they would break the law, but because they CHOOSE to break the law. If pre-destination were true, how can we hold anyone responsable for their accions?

Heh, all due respect to 7Believer, that is the golden dagger against his convictions. Well okay, there are many golden daggers, but you read that one and it's like, how far must one stretch their beliefs to to answer such rhetorical questions?

Don't get me wrong, Mr. Believer. I admire your conviction and tenacity.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:44 am

"I choose, therefore I am."
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:22 am

nicco99 wrote:You guys and your long posts.... -.-

neh?

arrhmmm.... i think our future is mapped out for us. but no one knows exactly what is planned.


Who/what preordains our lives and physical phenomena?

Like I've said before. If everything is preordained we'd know the exact initial conditions. This is impossible because it will require an infinite amount of energy for that to happen. That's why we can't predict the weather 100%.

If everything is preordained, what happens to free will and hope?

If everything is preordained, then all the causes and effects should already be present. We don't find them anywhere in the present moment, do we? Right Miss Scorpio? :D

Also, In HD's life book, Gods if there are any--do not CREATE imperfections! For me that's illogical. Immutable entities do not need to create nor change. Why the need to create? Change?

Lastly, if everything is preordained why have jails? Why keep prisoners locked up if their crimes were predetermined?
Why prosecute serial killers? Or any persons committing heinous crimes?

In order to grasp some of these concepts a basic knowledge of causality, quantum mechanics (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle), chaos theory, and emergence theory is helpful.

One more thing--Karma is about intention.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby nicco99 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:45 pm

heartsdreamer wrote:
nicco99 wrote:You guys and your long posts.... -.-

neh?

arrhmmm.... i think our future is mapped out for us. but no one knows exactly what is planned.


Who/what preordains our lives and physical phenomena?

Like I've said before. If everything is preordained we'd know the exact initial conditions. This is impossible because it will require an infinite amount of energy for that to happen. That's why we can't predict the weather 100%.

If everything is preordained, what happens to free will and hope?

If everything is preordained, then all the causes and effects should already be present. We don't find them anywhere in the present moment, do we? Right Miss Scorpio? :D

Also, In HD's life book, Gods if there are any--do not CREATE imperfections! For me that's illogical. Immutable entities do not need to create nor change. Why the need to create? Change?

Lastly, if everything is preordained why have jails? Why keep prisoners locked up if their crimes were predetermined?
Why prosecute serial killers? Or any persons committing heinous crimes?

In order to grasp some of these concepts a basic knowledge of causality, quantum mechanics (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle), chaos theory, and emergence theory is helpful.

One more thing--Karma is about intention.


>.< you ask to many questions kid.
No one can predict anything 100%
free will and are always there. you can do whatever you want. but how do you know in the end whether that outcome was meant to or wasn't meant to happen?
the causes and effects will be present. eventually. :lol:
look man.. i'm not god.. as much as i would love to be.. i don't know everything. :lol:
~We are all small and appear to be the same, but as we grow older our true beauty shows. Like a butterfly, we are all different, and beautiful in our own way.~
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby GoldenShadow » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:37 pm

I've been readining some of this post and thought to share my opinion.

I believe that free will and a preordained destiny walk hand in hand.
How I see it is that all the world's a story written in a book, so to say. Heence preordained, and we are now in said chapter said page and line in the story of the world. The book will come to and end, another will begin, of where we will be in the next life.
God gives us choice to do what we will, and we show this as proof that destiny is not detremined. But what we fail to see, be it that we are so naive perhaps, is that the world could not function without a Plan.
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