Evolution keeps on going and going...

[drewterry]

Well since your not interested Ill answer my own question. I would think that a person who set out to find something that had been created would look for signs of order and complexity. The more ordered and complex it is the more chance there is that someone or something created it. Now what puzzles me is why certain people refuse to apply this same principle to observations made about nature.

Simple structures through evolution make become complex and ordered. It has been seen in the labs. Why would they need a creator? Nature is very smart and does not need a creator--and again who/what created the creator. Logically, a "prime cause" seems illogical.

The macroscopic world (stars, galaxies, nebula, etc) are made from the microscopy world--atoms! So, are you saying atoms are divine? Matter is divine?

What you saw was something doing what it was programmed to do. It knew how to become complex because it was encoded with the ability to be complex. Who encoded it? Where did it get this knowledge from? If I know how to bake a cake to make ingredients more complex by rearranging them and I do it does that mean to you that evolution has taken place? To me it does not. It means to me that I was using information I was born with encoded with to cause complexity from simplicity.

[heartsdreamer]

The universe is self-sustained. There 's no need for Christian god

Why did your God "designed? men with nipples and tailbones? Poor designed? And the appendix? Gall- bladder?

If Man was first in the Garden of Eden why give him genital?

[drewterry]

The universe is self-sustained. There 's no need for Christian god

Why did your God "designed? men with nipples and tailbones? Poor designed? And the appendix? Gall- bladder?

If Man was first in the Garden of Eden why give him genital?

Vistigial organs?? Are you kidding me? The appendix is a storeage area for bacteria needed to process food without it that bacteria gets flushed out and most people without an appendix wind up having stomach trouble when they are older. Men have nipples because they were originally women in the womb. As for the tail bone that is necessary because all of the muscles down that in that region connect to it. Without it there would be nothing for them to connect to. Doctors have been causing people health problem for years because of their innane belief in evolution. When a doctor believes in evolution and cuts out the appendix as a result that doctor has just ensured that person will have stomach trouble when they are older. When a doctor believes in evolution and cuts off the tail bone they have just ensured that person will be in a lot of pain for a lot of years. Like when doctors believed that we all evolved from quadrapedal animals and fucked peoples backs up as a result of that belief.

[Ginkom]

The universe is self-sustained. There 's no need for Christian god

Why did your God "designed? men with nipples and tailbones? Poor designed? And the appendix? Gall- bladder?

If Man was first in the Garden of Eden why give him genital?

Vistigial organs?? Are you kidding me? The appendix is a storeage area for bacteria needed to process food without it that bacteria gets flushed out and most people without an appendix wind up having stomach trouble when they are older. Men have nipples because they were originally women in the womb. As for the tail bone that is necessary because all of the muscles down that in that region connect to it. Without it there would be nothing for them to connect to. Doctors have been causing people health problem for years because of their innane belief in evolution. When a doctor believes in evolution and cuts out the appendix as a result that doctor has just ensured that person will have stomach trouble when they are older. When a doctor believes in evolution and cuts off the tail bone they have just ensured that person will be in a lot of pain for a lot of years. Like when doctors believed that we all evolved from quadrapedal animals and fucked peoples backs up as a result of that belief.

Vestigial means it no longer serves the primary purpose it used to. Not that is has NO POSSIBLE purpose or small or mostly insignificant, or 'antiquity' purposes. Maybe it'll turn into something else, or we'll just get rid of it the rest of the way, takes time. And stuff is often re-purposed for a new use. :p

It's also a cause of death - return is "storage area for bacteria" (isn't everything) and downsides of removal is "possible stomach trouble when older"?? and presumably by then already having the ability to have children. Potential possible stomach trouble when older (as you said) or dying - mortality of untreated Appendicitis. Hmmm. Tough call. And bad design by ID ;p

Or tail bone, "muscles connect to it", useful, for having an actual tail.

[drewterry]

It's also a cause of death - return is "storage area for bacteria" (isn't everything) and downsides of removal is "possible stomach trouble when older"?? and presumably by then already having the ability to have children. Potential possible stomach trouble when older (as you said) or dying - mortality of untreated Appendicitis. Hmmm. Tough call. And bad design by ID ;p

I can tell from this what you posted that you have no idea what the appendix actually is. It is an extension piece of your intestine that extends a few inches past the stomach opening of your intestine. You should look it up. Its not an organ its just a piece of intestine nothing more. When it ruptures it would be real easy for a doctor to simply sew the end of it closed again. Which is what they should be doing to preserve it.

[drewterry]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray536.png



Look at what is called the vermiform process... That is your appendix. See the appendicular artery and its offshoots that feeds blood to that bit of intestine? Does that really look like its not being used to you?

[Ginkom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray536.png



Look at what is called the vermiform process... That is your appendix. See the appendicular artery and its offshoots that feeds blood to that bit of intestine? Does that really look like its not being used to you?

Being used is irrelevant to vestigial or not. But what purpose it originally served - and now being just secondary or irrelevant use.

So, wow, blood goes to it. Not amazed. Nor with muscles on the tail bone.

[belle_enigma]

Who the fuck cares!? We're here, does it really matter how we got here? There's nothing wrong with believing in evolution or God. Actually you can even believe in both if you want. This is a stupid argument that only appeals to those insecure about their own beliefs and who have to settle their insecurities in failed attempts of convincing another that their beliefs are correct. Neither is fact really, both are theories and although you can find evidence for both, you still have a belief, an opinion, a theory.

[heartsdreamer]

Scientists have a very inquisitive mind and therefore, the curiosity to find out the origin of the Universe and the human race--so far, the only living things capable of reflecting about their own mortality and having a higher level of consciousness to state that Consciousness is prior to experience without an object or a subject.

[Ginkom]

Who the fuck cares!? We're here, does it really matter how we got here? There's nothing wrong with believing in evolution or God. Actually you can even believe in both if you want. This is a stupid argument that only appeals to those insecure about their own beliefs and who have to settle their insecurities in failed attempts of convincing another that their beliefs are correct. Neither is fact really, both are theories and although you can find evidence for both, you still have a belief, an opinion, a theory.

You can believe what you wish.

However, Science is a different road. It's about excluding all bias, all beliefs, and see where the chips fall. If you don't "believe" in evolution, that's fine. Just don't throw your ignorance on schools, public education or on the scientific fields. You can believe it's not the case all on your own though, and I totally support THAT. If that's your BELIEF - totally cool with it. Stop trying to say "both are" though.

Both aren't "theories". No there is no "evidence" for "both". Firstly, 'Scientific Theory' doesn't mean English use of word "theory" meaning any harebrained idea. "I got a theory of how my sock went missing" isn't equivalent to scientific standards of "Germ Theory". The theory that small things we can't see can make us sick. And Evolution is a fact - how it occurred, is theory. An incredibly supported one, much more so than germ theory (which sits ontop of evolution anyway) or the theory that resulted in thousands of nuclear detonations (two in war).

Just a theory. Now compare that to the other side, if you give equal validity. Praying, well, been doing that for a long time throughout all recorded history. And seems to not be very effective. Bubonic plague? smallpox?

[belle_enigma]

Who the fuck cares!? We're here, does it really matter how we got here? There's nothing wrong with believing in evolution or God. Actually you can even believe in both if you want. This is a stupid argument that only appeals to those insecure about their own beliefs and who have to settle their insecurities in failed attempts of convincing another that their beliefs are correct. Neither is fact really, both are theories and although you can find evidence for both, you still have a belief, an opinion, a theory.

You can believe what you wish.

However, Science is a different road. It's about excluding all bias, all beliefs, and see where the chips fall. If you don't "believe" in evolution, that's fine. Just don't throw your ignorance on schools, public education or on the scientific fields. You can believe it's not the case all on your own though, and I totally support THAT. If that's your BELIEF - totally cool with it. Stop trying to say "both are" though.

Both aren't "theories". No there is no "evidence" for "both". Firstly, 'Scientific Theory' doesn't mean English use of word "theory" meaning any harebrained idea. "I got a theory of how my sock went missing" isn't equivalent to scientific standards of "Germ Theory". The theory that small things we can't see can make us sick. And Evolution is a fact - how it occurred, is theory. An incredibly supported one, much more so than germ theory (which sits ontop of evolution anyway) or the theory that resulted in thousands of nuclear detonations (two in war).

Just a theory. Now compare that to the other side, if you give equal validity.

Well I meant how evolution occurred is theory, I know evolution is fact. Anyways... okay.

Praying, well, been doing that for a long time throughout all recorded history. And seems to not be very effective. Bubonic plague? smallpox?

[heartsdreamer]

Yes, those damn mosquitoes --slap! slap! slap!

[BloodstainedHurricane]

I'd love to see some evidence for "intelligent design" or "creationism".

Anyway, people don't bother with drewterry. I used to argue with him, now I just have his posts on ignore so they don't show up unless I click on them. There's no point trying to explain things to him. From what I remember, he'll take one side of an argument, and when you rebut his "arguments" (which really are just incoherent blabber) he will change the argument to suit himself. Then, he'll suddenly start arguing from the other side. I don't know what his problem is, but it's really irritating, and I think we're better off preserving our sanity than trying to make sense of his posts.

[ParadoxicalEntity]

Well you could take a look at the Cambrian Explosion. Not saying that it validates the views of Intelligent Design or Creationism, nor does it debunk Evolution, but it is definitely interesting to read up on. To paraphrase: inexplicably there was a sudden diversification of organisms on Earth that makes up most of what we see today. Darwin saw the Cambrian Explosion could be used as a means of dissent for natural selection, but of course, we have come a long way in science since the times of Charles Darwin. There was research done by scientists at Dartmouth that said Creationists have a good argument and a paper was written. Perhaps a quick google and one could read it or maybe I'll try to find it myself for future reference.

[heartsdreamer]

The Cambrian explosion does not validate intelligent design. It validates the fact they don't understand the process of Evolution.

The Cambrian evolution was the spontaneous evolution of external body parts in all phyla where the internal body plans of all phyla are already in place.

Current evidence suggests that the Precambrian "event" -- the evolution of internal body parts was not explosive but gradual, lasting tens or hundreds of millions of years.

The Precambrian "event" was more a surge in evolution than an explosion. An atmospheric balance of oxygen, carbon dioxide help the breathing and circulatory systems of animals.

[ParadoxicalEntity]

Now we are thinking here..and yet, more questions still enter my mind.

[Ginkom]

Well you could take a look at the Cambrian Explosion. Not saying that it validates the views of Intelligent Design or Creationism, nor does it debunk Evolution, but it is definitely interesting to read up on. To paraphrase: inexplicably there was a sudden diversification of organisms on Earth that makes up most of what we see today. Darwin saw the Cambrian Explosion could be used as a means of dissent for natural selection, but of course, we have come a long way in science since the times of Charles Darwin. There was research done by scientists at Dartmouth that said Creationists have a good argument and a paper was written. Perhaps a quick google and one could read it or maybe I'll try to find it myself for future reference.

Well, ID and Creationism offers NOTHING. I mean, if we all sat around and said "God did it" - we'd still be waiting for rain instead of doing irrigation. Or whatever the latest incarnation is. Thankfully, they don't need the earth as the center of universe, or the sun going around around the earth anymore - for their beliefs to be true. Now, apparently, they need the flagellum of bacteria to be Intelligently designed? Wow, what a huge change. (and the world really laughs at us in this regard)

Darwin didn't understand anything of the Cambrian life. That we do today. Not to mention he came up with idea, and long after death DNA was was discovered. - A method for his idea. He was kinda lucky in this regard. But other "natural philosophers" at the time said similar things.

As far as arguments or debate, yeah, creationists or ID, can win here - as the person debating them probably don't know everything about everything. Thankfully, science doesn't work that way. Then it would just be about people saying stuff. Bad call. How about, demonstrating it? SHOWING it. With elimination of all bias. A lot easier to learn to bible backwards and front than the entire body of all science.

[heartsdreamer]

Well you could take a look at the Cambrian Explosion. Not saying that it validates the views of Intelligent Design or Creationism, nor does it debunk Evolution, but it is definitely interesting to read up on. To paraphrase: inexplicably there was a sudden diversification of organisms on Earth that makes up most of what we see today. Darwin saw the Cambrian Explosion could be used as a means of dissent for natural selection, but of course, we have come a long way in science since the times of Charles Darwin. There was research done by scientists at Dartmouth that said Creationists have a good argument and a paper was written. Perhaps a quick google and one could read it or maybe I'll try to find it myself for future reference.

Well, ID and Creationism offers NOTHING. I mean, if we all sat around and said "God did it" - we'd still be waiting for rain instead of doing irrigation. Or whatever the latest incarnation is. Thankfully, they don't need the earth as the center of universe, or the sun going around around the earth anymore - for their beliefs to be true. Now, apparently, they need the flagellum of bacteria to be Intelligently designed? Wow, what a huge change. (and the world really laughs at us in this regard)

Darwin didn't understand anything of the Cambrian life. That we do today. Not to mention he came up with idea, and long after death DNA was was discovered. - A method for his idea. He was kinda lucky in this regard. But other "natural philosophers" at the time said similar things.

As far as arguments or debate, yeah, creationists or ID, can win here - as the person debating them probably don't know everything about everything. Thankfully, science doesn't work that way. Then it would just be about people saying stuff. Bad call. How about, demonstrating it? SHOWING it. With elimination of all bias.

Very true. Darwin did not know anything about the Cambrian explosion and the new branches of science supporting evolution today.

In the Cambrian era, quantum physics had a lot to do with the explosion of life we have not discovered yet. For example, during the Cambrian era the environment was ready for the eyes (light) to be part of the animal kingdom. The eyes are for survival.

Light caused the explosion of life to move forward.

[ParadoxicalEntity]

And then we must ask ourselves: where did this light come from? haha

[bunkiemonkey]

The most powerful light jets from within a black hole.

[TDawg]

The light was always there. From the sun. The earth has been around for 4.6 billion years, the sun around 5 billion. The Cambrian period came around 530 million years ago. The universe can be traced backwards approximately 15 billion years... at which point... who really knows.

At any rate, the process by which evolution occurs is theory (natural selection), evolution itself is fact. We changed from Newton's theory of gravitation to Einstein's theory in the last century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in mid-air pending the outcome of the debate.

To believe that we, as humans, have been created specially or have been treated any differently than any other creature or plant or life form by a divine creator is simply our own sense of narcissism and superiority to other creatures.

Intelligent design and evolution have had it out before in the US including the Scopes Trail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_Trial and more recently the Dover School Board trial http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/beta/evolu ... trial.html.

[Tal]

Did you also know that God chose a woman to be the mother of his son? He could have chosen a walrus. Or a marmoset. Or even a man. But he didn't.

So there.

[TDawg]

If you explore the history enough you can find that he's chosen, among other things, a rock.

[RockPillow®]

We have (Evolved/Been Created) to argue for pages and pages and pages about it on a forum of dreamers.

[ParadoxicalEntity]

Believing that there is a Divine Creator that is superior reflects our own narcissistic dispositions? How so?

[bunkiemonkey]

Believing that there is a Divine Creator that is superior reflects our own narcissistic dispositions?

Yes.
Ethics displaced.
Expansive nature qualified.

How so?

Primal seduction, ignorance, and understanding.



How is it avoidable?

[TDawg]

Believing that there is a Divine Creator that is superior reflects our own narcissistic dispositions? How so?

Because it shows that we truly believe that we must be better than everything else in the Universe. (At least if you follow one of the Old Testament religions). That we were created special in the image of God and that we are God's cherished children etc.

We are no more special than the ants or the dirt or the smallest subatomic particle that makes up the universe. Not to sound nihilistic or anything but in the grander scheme of thing we really are nothing in particular. We are the result of a cosmic accident. Every molecule in our body at one time part of a sun or nebula or whatnot. The Universe has existed for billions of years without us, it will exist for billions of years once we are gone. Dinosaurs ruled the earth for 185 million years. Modern humans have been around for about the past 11,000. So to believe we are special is to be at least a little narcissistic, no?

By the way, I though drewterry crawled into a hole and disappeared years ago. Crazy!