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So everything that will happen is already preordained?

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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:02 am

If everything is preordained--there's no free will.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby nicco99 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:28 pm

heartsdreamer wrote:If everything is preordained--there's no free will.

neh??!!!!!!!!

free will is what you choose to do then and there....

but like... how do you know whether the choice you made was meant to happen or not... you don't know... so there is actually not really anyway to tell whether it is predetermined or not.

so really it can be preordained because no one knows whether the choices you made or not were actually what was meant to happen..so in the end..maybe your choices were what was meant to happen.


if that makes sense??? makes sense in my head. I suck at explaining stuff like this. I'm much better at talking out my thoughts.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby JJAKE » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:06 am

Our acts of free will are also preordained.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:35 pm

"Um, I did this because I was meant to" = Lazy statement.

"Um, things happen because... they are meant to! They are preordained, that is." = Lazy statement.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:58 pm

nicco99 wrote:
heartsdreamer wrote:If everything is preordained--there's no free will.

neh??!!!!!!!!

free will is what you choose to do then and there....

but like... how do you know whether the choice you made was meant to happen or not... you don't know... so there is actually not really anyway to tell whether it is predetermined or not.

so really it can be preordained because no one knows whether the choices you made or not were actually what was meant to happen..so in the end..maybe your choices were what was meant to happen.


if that makes sense??? makes sense in my head. I suck at explaining stuff like this. I'm much better at talking out my thoughts.


Every effect has a cause and causes have initial conditions. But like I've said before we can't know all the initial conditions to predict the outcome. How accurate can we predict the weather?

Also, if everything is preordained then Judas was a not a traitor! Judas was not guilty of betraying Jesus. Right? :D
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:06 pm

JJAKE wrote:Our acts of free will are also preordained.


Then people should not be punished for their crimes, etc.

All courts should be banned. No police, no justice system.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:01 pm

heartsdreamer wrote:
JJAKE wrote:Our acts of free will are also preordained.


Then people should not be punished for their crimes, etc.

All courts should be banned. No police, no justice system.

Pretty much.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby nicco99 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:27 pm

heartsdreamer wrote:
nicco99 wrote:
heartsdreamer wrote:If everything is preordained--there's no free will.

neh??!!!!!!!!

free will is what you choose to do then and there....

but like... how do you know whether the choice you made was meant to happen or not... you don't know... so there is actually not really anyway to tell whether it is predetermined or not.

so really it can be preordained because no one knows whether the choices you made or not were actually what was meant to happen..so in the end..maybe your choices were what was meant to happen.


if that makes sense??? makes sense in my head. I suck at explaining stuff like this. I'm much better at talking out my thoughts.


Every effect has a cause and causes have initial conditions. But like I've said before we can't know all the initial conditions to predict the outcome. How accurate can we predict the weather?

Also, if everything is preordained then Judas was a not a traitor! Judas was not guilty of betraying Jesus. Right? :D


I have no clue who Judas is.. obviously someone in the religious section.
Judas was just being Judas .. and Jesus was just being Jesus. They're human after all. It's how the their minds worked. If you are on Judas's side.. then you weren't betraying Jesus. You were doing what you thought was right. And after all Jesus was taking over the holy business. But if you're on Jesus's side .. then yes Judas betrayed Jesus. Jesus was making his way to the top and Judas was his set back.

hahaha had to quickly google Judas. Only read like a paragraph. so i could be wrong. :lol:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:22 am

Nope! You're always right Nicco :D

Causes have initial conditions.

If the Holocaust was preordained why label Hitler evil? :o
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby GoldenShadow » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:41 pm

heartsdreamer wrote:Nope! You're always right Nicco :D

Causes have initial conditions.

If the Holocaust was preordained why label Hitler evil? :o


So your suggesting that we are all exactly like Hitler? Hitler was supposed to happen just like everything else and everything that is destined to happen inthe future. We have free will because we have a choice if we want to be like Hitler, for example, or if we want to be something better, morally perhaps. Wait are you saying you don't believe in destiny, because for some reason that sounds difficult to believe.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby nicco99 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:06 pm

heartsdreamer wrote:Nope! You're always right Nicco :D

Causes have initial conditions.

If the Holocaust was preordained why label Hitler evil? :o


Maybe they're jealous of Hitler because Hitler was able to achieve his goals while others could not.
ummm... I think mostly it was because of the fact that Hitler went against others beliefs and because of the fact that we were brought up to believe he's evil.
It's the way the human mind works i guess. When everything is happening then and there.. our choices and decisions don't seem to be preordained. I think that when you think back to everything then the question arises to whether it is or not.

You ask to many questions and I feel as if I'm not smart enough to answer them the way people feel they should be answered. :lol:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:15 am

GoldenShadow wrote:So your suggesting that we are all exactly like Hitler? Hitler was supposed to happen just like everything else and everything that is destined to happen inthe future. We have free will because we have a choice if we want to be like Hitler, for example, or if we want to be something better, morally perhaps. Wait are you saying you don't believe in destiny, because for some reason that sounds difficult to believe.


If Hitler was supposed to happen; he was not evil. He was doing what he was supposed to. See the error there?
Either he had a say over what he was doing -- and had choosen an evil path -- or did not have a say over what he did; therefore he can not be evil, because his path had already laid even before he was born.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:54 am

DRLHyper wrote:
GoldenShadow wrote:So your suggesting that we are all exactly like Hitler? Hitler was supposed to happen just like everything else and everything that is destined to happen inthe future. We have free will because we have a choice if we want to be like Hitler, for example, or if we want to be something better, morally perhaps. Wait are you saying you don't believe in destiny, because for some reason that sounds difficult to believe.

If Hitler was supposed to happen; he was not evil. He was doing what he was supposed to. See the error there?
Either he had a say over what he was doing -- and had choosen an evil path -- or did not have a say over what he did; therefore he can not be evil, because his path had already laid even before he was born.

Heh, very good point. I suppose that begs the question of what it truly means to be 'evil,' but still.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:11 am

heartsdreamer wrote:If everything is preordained--there's no free will.

Thank you.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:57 pm

SamZee wrote:Heh, very good point. I suppose that begs the question of what it truly means to be 'evil,' but still.

Thanks. :)
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby GoldenShadow » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:15 pm

DRLHyper wrote:
GoldenShadow wrote:So your suggesting that we are all exactly like Hitler? Hitler was supposed to happen just like everything else and everything that is destined to happen inthe future. We have free will because we have a choice if we want to be like Hitler, for example, or if we want to be something better, morally perhaps. Wait are you saying you don't believe in destiny, because for some reason that sounds difficult to believe.


If Hitler was supposed to happen; he was not evil. He was doing what he was supposed to. See the error there?
Either he had a say over what he was doing -- and had choosen an evil path -- or did not have a say over what he did; therefore he can not be evil, because his path had already laid even before he was born.


Hmmm well I believe that free will and destiny walk hand in hand. Let's say that everything was written in a book. We are at the moment in chapter so and so, then keep moving as time goes by. The story has been written already, by God, and we are the characters, so to say. So thinking like this, do you ever here Vin Diesel saying in the middle of a movie "Yo why am I doing this I know what happens in this story?!" Diesel doesn't know that the story has been written before he even has lived it, I suppose I should say his character not him he's the actor but you get what I mean. So what's the advantage of knowing what's to happen, you can make it what you want. The best writers and storymakers work by first writing their end of the story. So you know where your going. But then that's how people function not God. Besides, destiny is not only about the choices we make, but also about how the world grOws ie a tornado forming in such and such place, a dog coming to save you from a burning house etc etc. We may make choices but we don't choose everything. So many miracles in this world, so many not possible or unlikely to happen by mathematicians possibility calculations etc etc. Funny how so many people disregard so many miracles inthe world, including that of life itself. That leads to one of mmy favorite questions, how are the mind body and soul combined?? So many questions... :goldblob:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby GoldenShadow » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:34 pm

DRLHyper wrote:
SamZee wrote:Heh, very good point. I suppose that begs the question of what it truly means to be 'evil,' but still.

Thanks. :)


Ouch that hurts. :lol: I dunno bout you people but I never call Anyone evil it's such a strong word. Lol but that's just me :)
(perhaps evil is in the eyes of society, and God, that's why ppl say what is and isn't evil.)I wonder what Other people think about that...what is evil if they dont agree with modern societal views :geek: ;)
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Mon May 02, 2011 8:11 am

Well, the problem with the example is that in a movie the characters have no say over what they are doing. Hence my previous point...

If Hitler, regardless of how one considers him (good/evil, etc.), was supposed to do what he did -- then he can not be held accountable for what he did. He was a mere 'tool', a mere 'pawn', an 'actor' if you wish -- in the end he had no say; he could not choose; he was not free, he did not do his will.

On the other hand, if Hitler willingly, completely himself, and only himself alone, thought of the genocidal actions he wanted to carry and thought they were okay to do, then that was entirely his own fault.

See the difference? In one scenario we have Hitler doing what he was supposed to do. But he was not a murderer, he was not a genocidal person: why? Simply because he was not doing what 'he' wanted, but what he was 'supposed' to do. He therefore is as guilty as a solider triggering a gun; but who is the real guilty one, the commander? Not him.

On the second scenario, he is entirely guilty of his actions; he did them acknowledging the consequences and he did them regardless of what anyone thought or wanted. _He_ had a say. _He_ did it.

To put it simply... Either there is destiny, or there is not. If there is, then whoever makes that destiny is responsible for all bad things that happen, and is therefore inherently evil. If there is not, then our individual concious choices determine our future.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby GoldenShadow » Wed May 04, 2011 11:54 am

Well, the problem with the example is that in a movie the characters have no say over what they are doing.


That wAs sort of my point. Movie characters don't know they don't have a choice and hence act on free will when in fact their destiny, storyline, has already been written. They don't know that, like we don't know that.When we watch a movie we don't think oh god what's the point of watching this because the story's been written ie preordained. We watch it because we see the characters as having a choice in all their actions and decisions. If you get what I mean.

So I guess we are like the characters in a movie. Hitler had a choice to do what he did but it would not have happened if he was not preordained to do so.

That's why people tend to argue on this point, if there was no free will then we are just like characters in a movie. But if destiny did not exist in the long run we wouldn't be here. Tell me how do you think animals came upon this earth? Do u believe in the theory that in the primordial earth a bunch of chemicals reacted to make an amino acid?(continues to proteins and DNA etc) Even so, in that case something must have triggered this statistically impossible scenario to occur. Reminds me of the movie Knowing..."what do you think happens? I think sh*t just happens" sometimes explanations are too difficult to come by to answer every single little piece of argument that perhaps we should just give up ( if you can't beat them join em :D )

But I still hold firmly to my belief..everything happens for a reason..we have the choice and we are all destined for something in this world till the next.

Peace :ecstatic:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Wed May 04, 2011 6:29 pm

GoldenShadow wrote:
Well, the problem with the example is that in a movie the characters have no say over what they are doing.


That wAs sort of my point. Movie characters don't know they don't have a choice and hence act on free will when in fact their destiny, storyline, has already been written. They don't know that, like we don't know that.When we watch a movie we don't think oh god what's the point of watching this because the story's been written ie preordained. We watch it because we see the characters as having a choice in all their actions and decisions. If you get what I mean.

No, I do not get what you mean because, no offense intended, your logic is directly contradictory.

On one hand you say we have free will, only then to say everything is pre-ordained. Either you have a say over your actions or you have not; it is as simple as that. This is one of the few true "black and white" questions. If you have free will, you can do as you please; yet solely you are accountable for anything/everything you do.

If you do not have free will, then everything/anything you do is the work of anothe entity.

Simply as that.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby GoldenShadow » Wed May 04, 2011 10:12 pm

No Offense taken. I know it seems contradictory but I have to disagree with you that this is not a simple black and white question. How can you be sure thatthere is no destiny, pretend you are the characters in a movie. You wouldn't know this or that is going to happen though their future has already been written. Do you get what I'm trying to get at? I believe in God, simple as that, and I'm guessing you don't because of your anti-destiny if that's what u call it position. Now I have no problem with that and perhaps that's why our understanding of destiny and free will differ.

"According to Islam, human beings are not completely masters of their fates, nor are they puppets subject to the hazards of destiny."

If we were all strongly destined for everything then we can argue that he or she was not evil but merely part of fate's doings. But if we had only free will then we can argue that you and I are here by mere accident and everything that has lead us hear was pure accident as well. Is it really nice to think that you and i were not made for this life but just were a mere abnormality created by nature? Perhaps you would agree with this but you have to agree that there are some things, some meetings in this world ( not only of people, but of chemicals, of science, of mathematics etc) that so perfectly work together that it would seem a complete miracle to exist or occur by pure accident (take note miracles this great seem impossible, so how can they exist all together in this world if not by an outside Influence?) If you have difficulty in believing that some things were just made to be then ask me to find you some examples of miracles in this world. But if you looked around more carefully you would not need to. They are all around you.

This is how I see the world. I hope I did not insult you in anyway, just delivering my view. :wave:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Thu May 05, 2011 7:07 am

Well, it took centuries for man to connect larvaes, with butterflies. Centuries.

Why should I say otherwise about the workings of the Universe in general?

Everything shall be revelaed in due time.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby GoldenShadow » Sun May 08, 2011 7:15 pm

Everything shall be revelaed in due time.


Completely true.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:22 pm

1/3 = 3-2
0.333… = 1 This is not a correct statement

I guess I just don’t see the harm in questioning the things I’ve been told and taught by
others.


You mention how 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 3/3 = 1, similar to how {3 - 2} also equals 1. I know that 1/3 + 1/3 + 0.3 infinite doesn't also equal 1 because 0.3 infinite isn't the same as 1/3. That's the point I was making. I also know that 0.6 infinite doesn't equal 2. My equations aren't wrong. You have tried applying them to 0.3 infinite to get the same result, but obviously you won't because like I have stated, 0.3 infinite isn't an accurate equation for 1/3.

The other day our Lord taught me the difference between hoping and being naive. Hope is when you believe in something where you have more to gain then to lose. Being naive is when you believe in something where you have more to lose than to gain. I think people should apply this logic to the existence of God. When you have a good teacher, you don't need to ask questions; the teacher provides you with everything you need to know. Now, when you have a bad teacher, asking a lot of questions will only result in a lot of bad answers. It's good to seek out the truth regarding everything, but once you have the truth, you should only question it's authenticity when you are given a good reason to.

If pre-destination were true, how can we hold anyone responsable for their accions?


Basically, I think your main question is, why would God allow us to sin and then punish us, when He could have prevented us from sinning in the first place? If you believe that God is all wise and benevolent, then He must have a good reason for doing what He does, even if we don't understand what that reason is. What if God only allows bad things to happen because in the end we will be better off then we were before it happened?

Consider the possibility that all the evil in the world is caused by the devil, who only became evil because he became confused. Now, if the devil had good intentions, but became confused, then who is to blame for his confusion? As I have stated earlier, what if God only allowed the devil to become confused because He knew that the end result would justify the means? If this is true, than nobody is to blame for the initial origin of evil, since all involved are justified by their actions. If you are the type of person who would kill a man because they accidentally caused the death of another, which was not their intention, than you are a murderer.

However, the devil's intentions did indeed become evil. I believe that's what sin is, evil intention. Now, what if God existed in all living things? Then whenever we wronged somebody (acted on evil intentions), including ourselves, we were wronging our Lord. Justice is the righting of wrongs, so every time we wronged our Lord, it makes perfect sense that we should right those wrongs by accepting His determined punishment. Although God does no wrong and deserves no punishment, He allowed us to wrong Him in the first place. Then, how is this fair? Since He exists inside of us when we wrong Him, He also exists inside of us when we serve out our punishment. In this way, not only does He experience the victim's suffering, but He also experiences the offender's punishment. So, nobody can accuse Him of not being fair.

For what reason would God allow all this to happen? Well, since the devil is confused, his mistake is causing a lot of suffering. When we are targeted for the evil that he creates, somebody else is being spared of that evil. Personally, I welcome all suffering, because I believe that by being it's target, I am sparing somebody else from having to suffer. The fact that they are being spared suffering makes me happy. It's what Lord Jesus taught. Self-sacrificing, unconditional love. Now, what if everybody had that same kind of devotion? Then everytime they were chosen to bare the burden of the devil's mistakes, they would be grateful for the chance to give the gift of sparing somebody else from experiencing them.

All suffering would be turned into sacrifice, all regrets into thanks, and all cause for hate into cause for love. From then onwards, people wouldn't despair as soon as evil arrived; they would welcome it with love and self-sacrifice. The devil's real goal isn't destruction, it's corruption. He wants to turn us away from God, so he can make us his slaves. By causing suffering, he hopes to give people a reason to abandon our Loving Lord. However, love exists even in the darkest darkness. One day, we will all be grateful for having been individually chosen by our Lord to bare the burden of Satan's mistakes. We will realize that we all feel the same way, and this will make us happy. So, instead of looking back and being upset about our
bad experiences, we will be grateful; we will know the bright side of evil.

We won't begrudge each other because we were being corrupted. We won't begrudge the devil because he was simply confused, like a lost child. We also won't begrudge our loving Lord, since the end result will have justified the means; making us stronger, smarter and far better off than we ever were before. There won't be anything to complain about. Sounds like a beautiful plan to me.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:53 pm

7Believer wrote:Sounds like a beautiful plan to me.

No offense,

but that sounds like the most sick-minded, evil, retarded, sado-masochistic 'plan' I have ever heard of.

Good thing 'god' does not exists. Elsewhere -- and if this were to be his 'plan' -- he would deserve to burn in a dark, hot, painful place for a very looooooooooooooong time.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:08 am

Care to give a reason with your opinion?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:24 am

7Believer wrote:
DRLHyper wrote:
7Believer wrote:Sounds like a beautiful plan to me.
No offense, but that sounds like the most sick-minded, evil, retarded, sado-masochistic 'plan' I have ever heard of.
Care to give a reason with your opinion?
I can, in his absence.

You see, the problem with your "theology" is that it turns God into an omnipotent puppet master who first grants his subjects weaknesses and then punishes them for being what they are. That makes life--what you call God's "plan"--an endless loop of punishment and gratification.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:28 pm

Dorn wrote:
7Believer wrote:
DRLHyper wrote:
7Believer wrote:Sounds like a beautiful plan to me.
No offense, but that sounds like the most sick-minded, evil, retarded, sado-masochistic 'plan' I have ever heard of.
Care to give a reason with your opinion?
I can, in his absence.

You see, the problem with your "theology" is that it turns God into an omnipotent puppet master who first grants his subjects weaknesses and then punishes them for being what they are. That makes life--what you call God's "plan"--an endless loop of punishment and gratification.

Thanks for replying,

maybe I was too hard, specially on the punishment thing.

However, Dorn is correct and has stated the precise flaw on which I must disagree with such 'plan'.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:47 am

You see, the problem with your "theology" is that it turns God into an omnipotent puppet master who first grants his subjects weaknesses and then punishes them for being what they are. That makes life--what you call God's "plan"--an endless loop of punishment and gratification.


You use the term puppet master. What is freedom? More specifically, what is freedom from God? If our loving Lord only wants us to do what is best, then to have freedom from Him would mean to do what is not best; to err. However, if we know enough to realize that by following ourselves instead of God, we risk producing harmful results, then freely choosing to do what is best by allowing God to guide us is in no way "having our strings pulled".

A punishment is a correction, and a correction is education. If a parent spills cookie crumbs on the floor in order to teach a child how to clean it up, is that punishment and gratification, or education and evolution? I don't know why you've applied permanence to your theory, since a lesson effectively learned doesn't need to be taught again.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:48 am

You use the term puppet master. What is freedom? More specifically, what is freedom from God? If our loving Lord only wants us to do what is best, then to have freedom from Him would mean to do what is not best; to err. However, if we know enough to realize that by following ourselves instead of God, we risk producing harmful results, then freely choosing to do what is best by allowing God to guide us is in no way "having our strings pulled".

The problem is not that. The problem lies in the fact that 'god' made flaws, on purpose, then choose to reward/punish based on those flaws alone.

It is like if I made a robot without arms, then punished it for not being capable of doing things that require the use of arms. Same here, 'god' put flaws in humans then punish them for having them.

A punishment is a correction, and a correction is education. If a parent spills cookie crumbs on the floor in order to teach a child how to clean it up, is that punishment and gratification, or education and evolution? I don't know why you've applied permanence to your theory, since a lesson effectively learned doesn't need to be taught again.

In that case I would call the parent in question an idiot. No offense but; why should the children clean his parent's mess? He did not do it; it is not his fault. Further, I dare say that even if the results were justified by any means, the action, itself, is completely unnecesary; it would either be more benefical to wait until the child himself committed the mistake of dropping crumbs on the floor; or accept that it would never happen.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Twerk » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:19 am

I think all this thought is brilliant and thought out. but we're all thinking as humans.

My most earliest childhood religious belief (and im not super religious in anyway, i bleieve in God pretty much thats it) is that there are some things that we cannot comprehend no matter what "LOGIC" (which ishuman logic) will understand. Men have died searching for answers for questions they don't even know.


Some things we should just accept. And enjoy, don't search whats the meaning of life, search whats the meaning of your life.


To me its happiness and love.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:21 am

I dare say it is all the opposite. If god exists, then there is a perfectly scientifically proveable explanation. We may not be able to find it as this time, but not trying is to accept inaction. Anyone who believes in a 'honest/positive' god should not accept inaction.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:27 am

The problem lies in the fact that 'god' made flaws, on purpose


Teachers create mathematical problems on purpose.

...why should the children clean his parent's mess?


For the purpose of the example, education. In general, because helping others produces better results overall then treating them indifferently.

...even if the results were justified by any means, the action, itself, is completely unnecesary


This seems to be a contradiction. If the ends justify the means, then the action is obviously not unnecessary. To be justified means to have a valid purpose.

To comment more on your robot example, what if the robot didn't understand the value of arms? If by punishment you mean correction, then teaching the robot first-hand how difficult tasks can be without arms, would be a justified lesson.

If god exists, then there is a perfectly scientifically proveable explanation. We may not be able to find it as this time, but not trying is to accept inaction. Anyone who believes in a 'honest/positive' god should not accept inaction.


I agree. Do you believe that inanimate objects require animate ones in order to cause a reaction in them? In other words, you believe that something can't come from nothing?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:35 pm

7Believer wrote:Teachers create mathematical problems on purpose.

For the purpose of the example, education. In general, because helping others produces better results overall then treating them indifferently.

But there is a problem in all of this: God's omnipotence. If god is omnipotent, then it could just imprint on my brain the prodeccures needed to solve the mathematical ecuation. I would still be able to solve it entirely on my own, but require no teaching at all.
7Believer wrote:This seems to be a contradiction. If the ends justify the means, then the action is obviously not unnecessary. To be justified means to have a valid purpose.

I disagree with your logic on the grounds that it equates with good intentions, but does not takes into account methods. The road to hell is paved with good intentions; indeed, the worst imaginable things were done with the best intentions in mind.

In order to ensure stability (a good thing/ good intentioned) in the Soviet Union, Stalin purged (killed, murdered, condemned to forced labor), hundreds of thousands of his own comrades and loyal men (evil results/ bad action).
7Believer wrote:To comment more on your robot example, what if the robot didn't understand the value of arms? If by punishment you mean correction, then teaching the robot first-hand how difficult tasks can be without arms, would be a justified lesson.

But in my case the robot, since it's creation, has no arms. It never knew arms. It just knows that I alone made him that way. I put that flaw in it, and then I am punishing it because it is unable to do tasks that require arms. As I see it, either I am a sadist, or I have a terrible memory problem and forgot to add arms to the robot. But even if the later case were to be true with god -- should not he by now have realized his mistake?
7Believer wrote:
If god exists, then there is a perfectly scientifically proveable explanation. We may not be able to find it as this time, but not trying is to accept inaction. Anyone who believes in a 'honest/positive' god should not accept inaction.


I agree. Do you believe that inanimate objects require animate ones in order to cause a reaction in them? In other words, you believe that something can't come from nothing?

Something can not come from nothing, which is why I do give the creationist theory a +1 score above the evolutionist's theory. That is not to say both theories are not flawed, because they are, but for the purposes of this discussiong we shall assume that the creationist theory is true. We should then focus on the whys of creation, rather than the hows.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:49 am

I would still be able to solve it entirely on my own, but require no teaching at all.


Yet, you would not understand anything without teaching. Basically, you would be a mindless computer.

I don't believe that Stalin had everybody's best interests in mind, just his own.

I put that flaw in it, and then I am punishing it because it is unable to do tasks that require arms.


I think you've missed my previous points on this subject. Replace punishment with education, and flaw with a problem to be solved.

I once again agree with you that both the evolutionist and creationist general theories are flawed. I do however believe that the true creationist account will fit harmoniously with science. If you take into consideration how Genesis describes waters being in the sky (mists) before the sun and moon were created, and also how night and day likewise existed before any mention of the sun and moon, then if by creation the scripture infers production (to produce), it would make a lot of sense that as the mists in the sky cleared, the sun and moon were produced. Basically, I believe that the universe did exist before the earth was created, and that Genesis supports this belief.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:42 pm

7Believer wrote:Yet, you would not understand anything without teaching. Basically, you would be a mindless computer.

Not necesarily. 'Transfer of knowledge' implies the knowledge and methods of knowledge are transfered directly, without intermediary. Such method would require no teching, yet still provide both the knowledge of why 1 + 1 = 2 and the logical conception of such. It would also allow for the question of this knowledge, althrough one would already know the invariable result of the questioning.
7Believer wrote:I don't believe that Stalin had everybody's best interests in mind, just his own.

Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, and almost every other dictator for that matter desired power, so obviously the interests of the general populace were not with their original intentions.
7Believer wrote:I once again agree with you that both the evolutionist and creationist general theories are flawed. I do however believe that the true creationist account will fit harmoniously with science. If you take into consideration how Genesis describes waters being in the sky (mists) before the sun and moon were created, and also how night and day likewise existed before any mention of the sun and moon, then if by creation the scripture infers production (to produce), it would make a lot of sense that as the mists in the sky cleared, the sun and moon were produced. Basically, I believe that the universe did exist before the earth was created, and that Genesis supports this belief.

So, let's do as I say. Let's not focus on the hows, but on the whys.
7Believer wrote:
I put that flaw in it, and then I am punishing it because it is unable to do tasks that require arms.


I think you've missed my previous points on this subject. Replace punishment with education, and flaw with a problem to be solved.

What education? I made a robot without arms and punish it for being incapable of doing a task that requires arms. From the start. It never had any arms. I made it specifically that way because I, as it's creator, decided to made it that way and solely that way.

For the purposes of the 'experiment', I am omnipotent. At least that is the point of view of the robot. However the robot should not be blind as to see I gave it no arms, and are expresely punishing it for a lack of arms (since the task at hand, ie: writting, making an object), requires arms.

I do not see how I am 'educating' that robot (whom, for the purposes of the theory, we shall assume is a sentient being). Personally, I think that if I did that I would be mean. Why, you will ask. I am being mean because I am punishing the robot on a flaw I, and only I, willfully and with regard put in it's desing.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:51 am

With a "transfer of knowledge", in order to understand what's been imparted to you, you would still need to backtrack through what you've been instantly taught. Otherwise, you are just following what can be compared to instinct, which is identical to mindless procedure; like a robot. So, in your mind you would still experience the lesson as if it had been taught seperately.

If you define punishment as abuse and nothing else, than yes, punishing your sentient robot would be mean. However, since I defined punishment as correction, the context changes.

The devil afflicts us physically, mentally, personally, and socially. He afflicts the old and the young. He uses us to afflict others, and them to afflict us. It's all bad. However, the goal of each is the same; to draw people away from God. The devil represents the problem that our Lord has created to be an example for teaching us a valuable lesson. The forms of suffering that we experience are examples of the different results that can transpire from not being able to solve the problem. The teacher wouldn't teach a useless lesson, so they show the students why the lesson is indeed useful by this means.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:16 pm

7Believer wrote:With a "transfer of knowledge", in order to understand what's been imparted to you, you would still need to backtrack through what you've been instantly taught. Otherwise, you are just following what can be compared to instinct, which is identical to mindless procedure; like a robot. So, in your mind you would still experience the lesson as if it had been taught seperately.

Exactly. Exept, that what is transfered is the process of learning, as if you would have learned it yourself. So you do not know 1 + 1 = 2 because it was transfered to you, you know it is so becase you know the why. Exept in my method, the entire process of learning is automated.
7Believer wrote:If you define punishment as abuse and nothing else, than yes, punishing your sentient robot would be mean. However, since I defined punishment as correction, the context changes.

I am defining it as abuse because that is the only condition that can come out of it. In my example, there is no way that it can serve any educative purpose. So most of so-called god 'corrections' act in the same way.
7Believer wrote:The devil afflicts us physically, mentally, personally, and socially. He afflicts the old and the young. He uses us to afflict others, and them to afflict us. It's all bad. However, the goal of each is the same; to draw people away from God. The devil represents the problem that our Lord has created to be an example for teaching us a valuable lesson. The forms of suffering that we experience are examples of the different results that can transpire from not being able to solve the problem. The teacher wouldn't teach a useless lesson, so they show the students why the lesson is indeed useful by this means.

But in the end we agree the devil was created by god. So, god is the one to blame for the devil's actions -- not the devil itself, since the devil is only a flawed creation.

It exactly like the example I gave of the robot. I make a sentient being, then punish it because of flaws I myself put in it.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:32 am

Exept in my method, the entire process of learning is automated.


What do you mean by automated? We still need to understand the why, either from natural learning or from backtracking through instant transference. You can't skip the learning process in order to understand.

So most of so-called god 'corrections' act in the same way.


I've already explained how Lucifer's goal is to draw people away from God. I believe that he was once an angel, but became confused because he thought that he could do a better job than our loving Lord, so he turned on God. Now he creates suffering, and tries to make it seem like the worst thing imaginable, so that people will question why an omnipotent and loving Creator would allow such things to happen. He tries to incriminate God in this way. However, what if God knew that the ends were going to justify the means?

Personally, I look back at all the suffering in my life and am glad, because I know what caused it. By being the target of evil's corruption, I have prevented others from being targetted. In a sense, I have saved them from having to endure suffering. What if everybody had this attitude? I predict that they will one day. It's a self-sacrificing, unconditionally loving attitude, one that I was taught by God. There is nothing that upsets me, because I can see the positive side of everything. To me, there is no worst thing imaginable. Everything Lucifer causes to happen is only permitted to take place because it ultimately serves a good purpose, despite his intentions.

He will try to turn molehills of suffering into mountains of suffering, claiming that somebody's life is ruined if anything really bad happens to them, but I disagree. No matter what happens, you can still choose to have a positive attitude, which will lead to you having a positive effect on the world. It's a lesson that teaches how love can conquer even suffering. As for our Lord's corrections, I've already explained how every sin requires a virtue to make up for it. Choosing to bear the burden of Lucifer's assaults so that others don't have to is indeed a virtue. This also applies to past sufferings. You can choose to be grateful for them since others remained unharmed because of them.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:51 pm

@ 7Believer: You are still eschewing the underlined snarl.
DRLHyper wrote:I make a sentient being, then punish it because of flaws I myself put in it.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:41 pm

Only if you keep preferring to see our Lord's education/punishments as pointless abuse, and our problems to solve/flaws as more pointless abuse.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:01 pm

Well, but the point still stands. If I make a being, and the flaws I put in it are the cause of it's suffering (which by the way is something I imposed upon it), it is abuse. There is no way out of that.

I also have noted a small detail in your way of thinking. First you state that punishments are education/correction. Yet when you take them they are acts of the devil, which you are taking to avoid others of this suffering. Is not this a conditioned aproach to the situation? Is not possible that you are taking suffering and avoiding others of the education/correction you claim this same in the first place should do?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:20 am

DRLHyper wrote:Well, but the point still stands. If I make a being, and the flaws I put in it are the cause of it's suffering (which by the way is something I imposed upon it), it is abuse. There is no way out of that.
Precisely. If it is preordained, every action is already completed. Reality is then a mere unfolding of events that were already certified by God.

Nevertheless, 7Believer could simply give up that premise and embrace time as a continuous becoming, where nothing is predetermined.

I also have noted a small detail in your way of thinking. First you state that punishments are education/correction. Yet when you take them they are acts of the devil, which you are taking to avoid others of this suffering. Is not this a conditioned aproach to the situation? Is not possible that you are taking suffering and avoiding others of the education/correction you claim this same in the first place should do?
It works if God is also Satan in his personal theology. That way, God/Satan implants the incentive to sin and then punishes to gratify himself for implanting it, as he has then succeeded in creating a species that is under his full command.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:12 pm

If I make a being, and the flaws I put in it are the cause of it's suffering...


You've ignored my points on this subject. It depends on your viewpoint. You can only see suffering, while I can see education. You can see only flaws, while I can see problems to solve. Is love stronger than suffering? It's being put to the test at this very moment. I already have my answer. You still await yours.

Is not this a conditioned aproach to the situation?


God's intentions and Lucifer's intentions are very different. So, I suffer from Lucifer, and learn from our loving Lord.

Is not possible that you are taking suffering and avoiding others of the education/correction you claim this same in the first place should do?


It's a win/win situation, from my viewpoint. When you're not suffering, you win. When you are suffering, if you have a self-sacrificing, unconditonally loving attitude, it is more equivalent to taking your turn at breaking a very wild bronco, while your partners rest.

...and embrace time as a continuous becoming, where nothing is predetermined.


If God is omnipresent, and omniscient, then he would be everything, and know everything. If He is everything that's moving forward in time, then He determines time. So, He knows the future, because He creates the future, and He knows what He's going to create before He creates it.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:03 pm

7Believer wrote:If God is omnipresent, and omniscient, then he would be everything, and know everything. If He is everything that's moving forward in time, then He determines time. So, He knows the future, because He creates the future, and He knows what He's going to create before He creates it.

Given that you insist on predestined stuff, let me state: The above situation you described would still make God guilty of all pain, directly or not. The only compromise I see here is that God is not omnipotent (only omniscient), therefore he has limited actions. This would explain why he would be unable to correct flaws he himself created -- since after all, it is not between his reach.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:31 am

The only compromise I see here is that God is not omnipotent (only omniscient), therefore he has limited actions.


I didn't mention omnipotence because it wasn't relative, not because He didn't have it. If God created everything in the universe out of Himself, by Himself, He can repeat the process in any measure at any time He pleases; omnipotence.

This would explain why he would be unable to correct flaws he himself created.


A teacher creates a problem for students to solve, not for themself to solve.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:07 pm

God created the universe and made everything preordained then created all of us in this preordained world which inexorably led to us creating this web site so we can argue if the universe is preordained or not.

If everything is preordained then we are merely puppets to this god of yours and he/she is having fun making all of us say these silly things to each other in which we have no control of.

Of course I was always taught we had this thing called free will which always meant that god has no control over us and we can do as we will. The only thing that stands in the way of free will is anything of influence which ironically churches/religions are high up on the list of influences people face in their daily lives. So to me it seems that this god figure of yours gave us free will then religion takes that free will away.

Anyway, I always thought believing that everything is preordained is an extremely out of date way of thinking. Look up dark ages and read about the philosophical views and ideology of the time.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:54 pm

Daniel24 wrote:If everything is preordained then we are merely puppets to this god of yours and he/she is having fun making all of us say these silly things to each other in which we have no control of.

Most exactly.
Daniel24 wrote:Of course I was always taught we had this thing called free will which always meant that god has no control over us and we can do as we will. The only thing that stands in the way of free will is anything of influence which ironically churches/religions are high up on the list of influences people face in their daily lives. So to me it seems that this god figure of yours gave us free will then religion takes that free will away.

That could be a very fair compromise, but would still give range to my point of lack of omnipotence: The fact that God has no control over his creations, means he can not alter them. Thus he can not correct their flaws.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Jeff_in_Time » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:45 am

Lmao guess that means your banning was preordained too :D
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:15 am

Free will is what seperates the sentient from the non-sentient. Sentience has choices, and can act by itself. Non-sentience has no choices, and can only react to sentience (including the domino effect of nature).

If everything is preordained then we are merely puppets to this god of yours...


How so? Puppets have no choices. We do.

The only thing that stands in the way of free will is anything of influence...


Choice means the acceptance of a possibility. Influence means a cause. The factors that lead one to choose are causes. You cannot choose without being caused to, but this doesn't mean that your choice is forced. Being forced into doing something means having to do it against your will, and against your choice.
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