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So everything that will happen is already preordained?

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So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:20 pm

Not!

If everything that is preordained then all the future's causes and conditions should already be present. If that were so, nothing could stop them from expressing themselves at once and that's illogical.

So we have free will :eat:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby operatormike » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:10 am

Hi HD,

Interesting concept for a thread.

I agree with you 100% Everything is not preordained. We have free will. Our choices affect the outcome of events. We can change the future.

This does not dissuade me from believing in premonitions. There is too much evidence that proves they happen. Discussing it on this site and reading about it only reinforces this concept for me.

The best example is a premonition of my wife's. She saw a friend of ours dying in a car crash. The scene was very specific..on a bend of a road by a river. He lives in Toronto. We hadn't seen him in years. I called him and told him the dream. He recognized the scene. He said he would be careful. He called back a week later and told my wife thank you for saving his life. He went slower than usual around that bend and had a very close call. It would have been an accident for sure if he were going his usual speed.

So that is the reason for premonitions sometimes, to warn us. Usually it is just a glimpse of a scene or a image of something that is in the dream...from the immediate future..then when you see it in real life, you recall the dream. This has happened to me and made me understand the dream better...and its meaning for me in my life..like what I needed to do.

What do you think?

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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby The Eagle » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:18 am

heartsdreamer wrote:Not!

If everything that is preordained then all the future's causes and conditions should already be present. If that were so, nothing could stop them from expressing themselves at once and that's illogical.

So we have free will :eat:


Free will is limited to the choices of others around you.

for instance - if you go to a shop to buy a sandwich - your choices are limited in your sandwich selection that the shop has. if that shop only had egg mayo it was "pre-ordained" that you would buy egg mayo - not the tuna sweetcorn you would of chose given the idea of free will as a stand alone idea. :lol:

its the druid "wyrd" - that fate in terms of man is more a collection of choices of the past and present - and also your own choice of where/what you want to do. you are here now becuase you parents chose to have sex - you are in your current position because of all the choices you and others around you made up until this point. but an element of those choices - is that they were made with the future in mind. the choices that surround you are dependant on the choices of others - which distracts from the idea of free will. :)

however if you consider "natural processes" then we can say things are "preordained". the sun WILL burn out - mountains will wear away into the sea etc etc

in my opinion........
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Kuahji » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:35 pm

heartsdreamer wrote:Not!

If everything that is preordained then all the future's causes and conditions should already be present. If that were so, nothing could stop them from expressing themselves at once and that's illogical.

So we have free will :eat:


I don't really see how that is illogical. Everyone would like to think things aren't preordained, but can we really know that for sure? Many philosophers claim that quantum mechanics is proof of free will, but is it really? I mean what is quantum mechanics really? A mixture of mechanics and statistics, but it's true nature is either baffling or unknown. We live in a world where it may not be possible to know all of the variables, and hence may not be able to accurately always predict the future. But that is not evidence for a non-deterministic world.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby drewterry » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:20 pm

Your end is predestined how you get there is up to you.
How you live your life is nothing compared to how you live your death
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby operatormike » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:16 am

drewterry wrote:Your end is predestined how you get there is up to you.


Sounds like a lot of sojourning and decision making for nothing!

P.S. My end might be predestined, but I keep it covered for personal reasons!!! :lol:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:46 pm

I'm with ya Mike. Though there's many ifs ands and buts. I would never entertain the idea of total determinism, we're the creators of our own experience. Even if we've chosen some of our more significant experiences before birth, it's still choice in my opinion. What's interesting is that time would seem to be cyclic on multiple levels, from personal to global. But nothing's set in stone. When it comes to "the future," I think the key word is probability. We're influencing the future constantly.
operatormike wrote:This does not dissuade me from believing in premonitions. There is too much evidence that proves they happen. Discussing it on this site and reading about it only reinforces this concept for me.
Well put. When people "see the future," what they're viewing is currently the most probable time line. Of course the viewer has an impact on what is seen, so that can be factored in as well. "There is no sequence. Probability encapsulates all that was, is, and ever will be into the same immeasurable moment of infinite possibility."
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby AWs » Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:24 am

everything Preordained ? IMO - No
even from a biblical perspective, If a man was "numbered" = his fate was sealed - which I assume also means that until then, his fate is Not sealed.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby operatormike » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:35 am

SamZee wrote: Well put. When people "see the future," what they're viewing is currently the most probable time line. Of course the viewer has an impact on what is seen, so that can be factored in as well. "There is no sequence. Probability encapsulates all that was, is, and ever will be into the same immeasurable moment of infinite possibility."


Tip of the hat to you, AWs....is that like A & W rootbeer?

Agreed Sam Z,

The future that we glimpse in dreams is the possible future. Sometimes a premonition is a warning to change something, so it doesn't happened. My wife saved my best friend's life this way!

A lot of times, the future dream images are almost trivial. But just as everything in a dream has meaning, so are these seemingly trivial images. Most recently it happened to me in my 'alligator dream'...It really bugged me that the alligator was tan colored. I always thought they were dark green. Then I saw that very tan colored, (well it was actually a crocodile :oops: , but I'm from Cleveland, OK?)..on TV a few days later. This reminded me of the dream and helped me understand it. I had been mulling over comments from fellow DMers here!

Peace,
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Tal » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:27 am

I'm not terribly fond of the idea that our lives and everything around us has a neatly mapped out destiny. That would mean that all those innocents that die in war or from famine were born for no other reason than to suffer. It also removes the responsibility of evil actions from the perpetrators. In other words, the idea of predestination is like God saying: "you're being born so you can starve to death for no apparent reason and you're being born to inflict pain and deprivation on others and you'll grow up to be homeless, drug addict". Rather cruel perspective on the sanctity of life.
I prefer to know that I'm in control of my own destiny and that nobody but me is responsible for my choices. Even if they're the wrong ones, at least there's still an element of courage in admitting it; which is far more real than saying "God made me do it/it's not my fault because my life is already planned out this way". That's just a cop out.
It also works the other way round with those who are courageous and peaceful etc. Saying that their lives are preordained negates all their kindness and effort.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby operatormike » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:43 am

Tal wrote:I'm not terribly fond of the idea that our lives and everything around us has a neatly mapped out destiny. That would mean that all those innocents that die in war or from famine were born for no other reason than to suffer. It also removes the responsibility of evil actions from the perpetrators. In other words, the idea of predestination is like God saying: "you're being born so you can starve to death for no apparent reason and you're being born to inflict pain and deprivation on others and you'll grow up to be homeless, drug addict". Rather cruel perspective on the sanctity of life.
I prefer to know that I'm in control of my own destiny and that nobody but me is responsible for my choices. Even if they're the wrong ones, at least there's still an element of courage in admitting it; which is far more real than saying "God made me do it/it's not my fault because my life is already planned out this way". That's just a cop out.
It also works the other way round with those who are courageous and peaceful etc. Saying that their lives are preordained negates all their kindness and effort.


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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:05 am

Tal wrote:I'm not terribly fond of the idea that our lives and everything around us has a neatly mapped out destiny. That would mean that all those innocents that die in war or from famine were born for no other reason than to suffer. It also removes the responsibility of evil actions from the perpetrators. In other words, the idea of predestination is like God saying: "you're being born so you can starve to death for no apparent reason and you're being born to inflict pain and deprivation on others and you'll grow up to be homeless, drug addict". Rather cruel perspective on the sanctity of life.
I prefer to know that I'm in control of my own destiny and that nobody but me is responsible for my choices. Even if they're the wrong ones, at least there's still an element of courage in admitting it; which is far more real than saying "God made me do it/it's not my fault because my life is already planned out this way". That's just a cop out.
It also works the other way round with those who are courageous and peaceful etc. Saying that their lives are preordained negates all their kindness and effort.

Now here's something we can definitely agree upon. You make some fine points here. I'd most certainly agree that predestination is to assign people their own nature without choice. You're right -- by that logic one could attribute all their deliberate actions to destiny or god, whatever floats their boat. How ridiculous would it be for someone to justify murder with "I was destined to"?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:39 pm

SamZee wrote:
Tal wrote:I'm not terribly fond of the idea that our lives and everything around us has a neatly mapped out destiny. That would mean that all those innocents that die in war or from famine were born for no other reason than to suffer. It also removes the responsibility of evil actions from the perpetrators. In other words, the idea of predestination is like God saying: "you're being born so you can starve to death for no apparent reason and you're being born to inflict pain and deprivation on others and you'll grow up to be homeless, drug addict". Rather cruel perspective on the sanctity of life.
I prefer to know that I'm in control of my own destiny and that nobody but me is responsible for my choices. Even if they're the wrong ones, at least there's still an element of courage in admitting it; which is far more real than saying "God made me do it/it's not my fault because my life is already planned out this way". That's just a cop out.
It also works the other way round with those who are courageous and peaceful etc. Saying that their lives are preordained negates all their kindness and effort.

Now here's something we can definitely agree upon. You make some fine points here. I'd most certainly agree that predestination is to assign people their own nature without choice. You're right -- by that logic one could attribute all their deliberate actions to destiny or god, whatever floats their boat. How ridiculous would it be for someone to justify murder with "I was destined to"?


To consider that God doesn't have a plan for each of us, and leaves our future to chance, would suggest that The Creator of existence is not in control of it. I think that is a mistake. If He was not in control, why would He intervene with humanity in order to preserve it, showing the desire for the progress of life, and the intelligence for planning (revealed by His Law; virtue as opposed to sin, so we would not destroy ourselves, but would seek to preserve ourselves), and yet at the same time disregard the many possibilities that could lead to our destruction by His lack of control?

If you do not believe in God (believing Christianity to be a hoax, making it possibly the biggest lie in mankind's history) and credit everything to chance and coincidence, then what are the odds that humanity would not have as much diversity as birds, mammals, reptiles, fish, plants, or food? You can say we stopped evolving based on the lack of need, but then what of crocodiles, like the one mentioned in operatormike's dream? They haven't changed much at all in the estimated 200 million years of their existence, yet they are not the superior lifeform.

If you believe in God, then hopefully you acknowledge the existence of the devil as well. Now, we can question why God has planned for some of us to be corrupted by evil, or to suffer from it, or we can trust that His plan for humanity is perfect. It could be the best way to teach us not to sin; to show us the consequences of doing so. Again, we can question why some of us need to be sacrificed, but remember His Son, Our Lord Jesus, was sacrificed for us. Maybe through sacrifice we learn the value of life.

You mention negating credit for actions because they are already planned. I think our life role is not to decide our future, but to act it out. Knowing that God's judgement is perfect, why then should we continue to follow our own judgement? I think those of us that sin are not acting according to God's will, but according to His plan. I think to claim God is responsible for you sinning isn't untrue, but I think he will also be responsible for your punishment if you do not turn from your ways. Those of us that do good, yet deny crediting Our Creator for it, make a mistake of thinking we are the ones responsible for benevolent intention being within ourselves.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:38 pm

It is not my intention to create friction upon your beliefs with mine, but I must disagree. I understand that from reading my brief post, it would come across that I'm an atheist, but I certainly am not. I just believe in a very different creator than most people. I believe the universe and everything in it is a manifestation of the creator, an expression of the one. Most religions view god as a separate being, where I do not. It is my belief that the creator is us, and we are the creator, everything is one and the same. Because of that, "God's plan" as you put it, is the plan we make for ourselves. In fact I believe it is our purpose to experience that which we desire, good or bad. We're not talking about morality here we're talking about the gift of free will. For me, this is just one level of existence before we eventually return to oneness again. It's at that point, that there exists no such thing as "good and bad." Now, I see where you're coming from. I used to be Catholic after all. I was for about a little less than 90% of my life. I'm only sharing all this is so that maybe you can see where I'm coming from. I just didn't want you to get the wrong idea if you thought I was an atheist.

Now, I don't want you to feel offended by this question, I'm just interested in hearing your rationale. If God's plan is so perfect, and if he loves all his creations (us) equally, why would some of those creations have to be the example of what not to become? You talk about evil existing for purposes of setting an oppositional example for others yes? Why is it that those souls have to be the examples and get the shaft? -- spending an eternity with the devil?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:40 am

SamZee wrote:It is not my intention to create friction upon your beliefs with mine, but I must disagree. I understand that from reading my brief post, it would come across that I'm an atheist, but I certainly am not. I just believe in a very different creator than most people. I believe the universe and everything in it is a manifestation of the creator, an expression of the one. Most religions view god as a separate being, where I do not. It is my belief that the creator is us, and we are the creator, everything is one and the same. Because of that, "God's plan" as you put it, is the plan we make for ourselves. In fact I believe it is our purpose to experience that which we desire, good or bad. We're not talking about morality here we're talking about the gift of free will. For me, this is just one level of existence before we eventually return to oneness again. It's at that point, that there exists no such thing as "good and bad." Now, I see where you're coming from. I used to be Catholic after all. I was for about a little less than 90% of my life. I'm only sharing all this is so that maybe you can see where I'm coming from. I just didn't want you to get the wrong idea if you thought I was an atheist.

Now, I don't want you to feel offended by this question, I'm just interested in hearing your rationale. If God's plan is so perfect, and if he loves all his creations (us) equally, why would some of those creations have to be the example of what not to become? You talk about evil existing for purposes of setting an oppositional example for others yes? Why is it that those souls have to be the examples and get the shaft? -- spending an eternity with the devil?


I'm glad to hear you also believe in Our Lord, and I agree with you in your belief that we are all a part of God. I disagree with you, however, in your belief about there being no good and bad. There is a wrong and right way to do things, as the consequences are not all the same. If this wasn't true, chaos would ensue. You wouldn't have beliefs, because you wouldn't recognise them as right, as opposed to other people's beliefs. Flaws like this in our thinking is reason why we should follow God and not ourselves (which, I believe, allows us to be tricked by the devil without knowing it).

I am not offended at all by your question. Perhaps those that are made examples of will be repaid in the future. I think it is written that Lord Jesus would banish the wicked from Heaven and rescue the righteous from hell come judgement day. This shows possibility for all souls to be rescued eventually.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:41 am

operatormike wrote:Hi HD,

Interesting concept for a thread.

I agree with you 100% Everything is not preordained. We have free will. Our choices affect the outcome of events. We can change the future.

This does not dissuade me from believing in premonitions. There is too much evidence that proves they happen. Discussing it on this site and reading about it only reinforces this concept for me.

The best example is a premonition of my wife's. She saw a friend of ours dying in a car crash. The scene was very specific..on a bend of a road by a river. He lives in Toronto. We hadn't seen him in years. I called him and told him the dream. He recognized the scene. He said he would be careful. He called back a week later and told my wife thank you for saving his life. He went slower than usual around that bend and had a very close call. It would have been an accident for sure if he were going his usual speed.

So that is the reason for premonitions sometimes, to warn us. Usually it is just a glimpse of a scene or a image of something that is in the dream...from the immediate future..then when you see it in real life, you recall the dream. This has happened to me and made me understand the dream better...and its meaning for me in my life..like what I needed to do.

What do you think?

Peace,
Operator Mike


Hi Mike :wave:

Yes, we can change our future with our actions. And free will is the tool we have to do it.
It everything was preordained then why have jails? Why punish criminals? We obviously punish them.
If there's a God, she'd be heartless to give children deadly/terminal illnesses at birth, right?


Regarding premonitions, I'm still skeptical about them because statistically, the "misses" are greater than the "hits." No at all premonitions become true. I have had myself some premonitions becoming true.

I'm open minded about them. Often, I believe premonitions are tricks of our minds--our unconscious.

In our dreams subjective (psychological) time takes us to the past, the now, and the future without our conscious awareness (awaken experience.) How these premonitions arise is a deep mystery. Are they originated in the mind or out of the mind?

I agree with you--premonitions warn us about the future and they are always related to the "state of our mind" during our waking time.

Your wife's experience is a good example of a premonition becoming true. But there are also lots of "misses" that have been statistically recorded.

We do not know that much about how our minds work. We've got a lot to learn about it.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:56 am

I apologize, 7believer. For once again I neglected to explain my notions beyond the surface level. I'm reminded time and time again that if I'm to mention any belief of mine concerning universal or spiritual philosophy, that I must do so in great depth, else it will be greatly misunderstood. I most certainly do believe in good and bad, right and wrong, positive and negative, or as I call them, the "service to self" and "service to others" polarities. This oppositional duality creates great catalyst for growth, but their energies are both derived from the creator as everything is. Of course at our level of existence those energies are greatly distorted, and at the mercy of the Ego, but ultimately they're two facets of the same energy -- the source of all things. At this third density they are greatly opposed and at opposite ends of the spectrum. But as these energies evolve through the densities, as we evolve, they become less distorted and eventually less separate, until the 8th density (the unity of all things) in which they become one and the same again. I know that raises a lot of questions but we should probably steer back to the original post. :p I just felt bad that I gave you, and potentially others the wrong idea.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:47 am

Yes, we can change our future with our actions. And free will is the tool we have to do it.
It everything was preordained then why have jails? Why punish criminals? We obviously punish them.
If there's a God, she'd be heartless to give children deadly/terminal illnesses at birth, right?


Regarding free will, if God's Way was the perfect way for us, knowing that our judgement lacks compared to His perfection, why choose to be imperfect? Why choose to fail?

I don't see how a preordained future conflicts with imprisonment and punishment. They help us learn about right and wrong. As for children with terminal illnesses, maybe that is to teach us about loyalty and faith. Are you more loyal to the child, or to Our Creator? Do you place more importance on the progress of life, or on God's plan for us? Isn't the child's spirit more important than it's flesh? Taken in innocence, the child gets to resist the corruption of evil, and gain surety for Heaven (considering it being too young to be taught to believe in God, I don't think it unlikely to believe that Our God would show it mercy and welcome it into Heaven).

Samzee, no offense taken. I apologise if I'm wrong, but it appears to me like you've abandon your spiritual point of view in favor of a scientifical one. You claim it spiritual, but produce scientific reasoning. It seems you've replaced the devil with the ego. How do you explain the desire for evil? I don't think evolution covers it, as wouldn't that be contradictive?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:24 pm

Heh, my beliefs are definitely not scientific. When I talk about these energies I refer not to physical energy. I'm talking about two different means of seeking the Creator. You most certainly had one thing right though, I do replace the devil with the Ego. That was quite perceptive of you. Now, this actually doesn't deviate much from common Christian belief. Besides the fact that I don't believe in the devil, the bible's description of the devil is actually quite the same as the human Ego. In Christian belief, Lucifer wants everyone to do all these sinful things right? Well, those sinful things are what feed the Ego. You'll notice that the 7 deadly sins are all behaviors that serve and feed the Ego. Christians will say that to commit these sins is to turn away from God, right? Well, I agree with that, just in a very different way. See, to commit these sins is to feed the Ego, and the Ego keeps you blinded by the illusion of separation. It keeps you thinking that your identity is the body, and that you're separate from everything. And since, in my belief, everything is the creator... to serve the Egoic self is to turn yourself from "God," or in my words, to separate yourself from the one infinite creation. So effectively I share similar integrity with Christianity, I just have a very different spin on it. =]
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Tal » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:58 pm

I agree with Sam. To me, the Creator is not some anthropomorphised god but all and everything and such things do not have the traits that make humanity what it is. Jealousy, vengence, autocratic dogma, even tyranny which describe the God of the bible, q'uran and torah belittles and trivialises the great omniscience of the universal creator. Why would such greatness even care how many times a person has sex? Or how many drugs they take or whether or not they swear? Such things are trivial matters and God is not petty.
Predestination also rules out the notion of Karma. If everthing is neatly mapped out then there's no need for Karma.
I also shudder at the idea that God "decides" who a serial murderers victims will be and allows them, (and their loved ones) to suffer abominably at what is, essentially a whim. The very idea is abhorrent.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:35 am

Wonderfully articulated.
Tal wrote:Why would such greatness even care how many times a person has sex? Or how many drugs they take or whether or not they swear?
Just in case the meaning of this sentence is misconstrued, she's not talking about the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god. She poses this rhetorical question of the conscious universe that is the creator. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
Tal wrote:Jealousy, vengence, autocratic dogma, even tyranny which describe the God of the bible, q'uran and torah belittles and trivialises the great omniscience of the universal creator.
Another fine point. I would add "wrath" to that list, especially concerning the old testament.
Tal wrote:Predestination also rules out the notion of Karma. If everything is neatly mapped out then there's no need for Karma.
Very keen. Of course, it's anyone's free will to believe or not believe in anything they want, but to ignore the universal laws is to travel with one's eyes closed. If someone said to me that the Law Of Karma, or Attraction, or One didn't exist, I would reply as the Persian messenger did to Leonidas. "This is blasphemy! This is madness!"
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:33 am

Tal wrote:I agree with Sam. To me, the Creator is not some anthropomorphised god but all and everything and such things do not have the traits that make humanity what it is. Jealousy, vengence, autocratic dogma, even tyranny which describe the God of the bible, q'uran and torah belittles and trivialises the great omniscience of the universal creator. Why would such greatness even care how many times a person has sex? Or how many drugs they take or whether or not they swear? Such things are trivial matters and God is not petty.Predestination also rules out the notion of Karma. If everthing is neatly mapped out then there's no need for Karma.
I also shudder at the idea that God "decides" who a serial murderers victims will be and allows them, (and their loved ones) to suffer abominably at what is, essentially a whim. The very idea is abhorrent.


To reply to the parts in italics, to teach right from wrong is not petty. The terms used for describing God in The Bible, to non-Christians it could not make sense, but to believers in the existence of the devil's corruption it can. Like when Lord Jesus spoke in parables so only those who were meant to understand could, perhaps so are the more difficult pages of The Bible. It could be that when God was referring to His jealousy and wrath, the consequences of turning away from Him and receiving the devil were meant. To choose a false diety instead of God would be to choose the devil, and then to receive the devil's sin upon you, made out to be the appearance of God's claimed jealousy.

Regarding karma, I don't see how existence being preplanned negates the effect of what you identify as karma. To do good and follow God, is to have Him reward you. To do evil is likewise the opposite.

For the last part of your post, I don't think anything God does is based on a whim. Consider this; is your attachment to life made stronger by such losses, and your desire for love and equality also made stronger? If those unfortuante souls live on in Heaven (or purgatory or hell; in which case they could eventually be rescued) and likewise learn the value of life and not breaking God's law, then nothing that is eternal was lost, but the lesson of love and justice was kept.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:40 pm

How could Karma exist in a determinist universe? It would be "fixed" by what's planned to happen... by god. That would be to replace its definition of "a balancing force/law of the universe" with just, "the will of god." Unless that's how you define it.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:59 pm

SamZee wrote:How could Karma exist in a determinist universe? It would be "fixed" by what's planned to happen... by god. That would be to replace its definition of "a balancing force/law of the universe" with just, "the will of god." Unless that's how you define it.


I think you are correct in assuming my definition, but could you define yours more please? A balance of what, and law stating what?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:47 pm

SamZee wrote:How could Karma exist in a determinist universe? It would be "fixed" by what's planned to happen... by god. That would be to replace its definition of "a balancing force/law of the universe" with just, "the will of god." Unless that's how you define it.


Quantum mechanics has demolished determinism. Although QM allows a narrow window of determinism, otherwise our world would be total chaos: No TVs, no lasers, no cell phones, no iPads, no iPods, etc.

Lastly, Karma is about intentions!

You get what you give!
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:52 pm

The Eagle wrote:
heartsdreamer wrote:Not!

If everything that is preordained then all the future's causes and conditions should already be present. If that were so, nothing could stop them from expressing themselves at once and that's illogical.

So we have free will :eat:


Free will is limited to the choices of others around you.

for instance - if you go to a shop to buy a sandwich - your choices are limited in your sandwich selection that the shop has. if that shop only had egg mayo it was "pre-ordained" that you would buy egg mayo - not the tuna sweetcorn you would of chose given the idea of free will as a stand alone idea. :lol:

its the druid "wyrd" - that fate in terms of man is more a collection of choices of the past and present - and also your own choice of where/what you want to do. you are here now becuase you parents chose to have sex - you are in your current position because of all the choices you and others around you made up until this point. but an element of those choices - is that they were made with the future in mind. the choices that surround you are dependant on the choices of others - which distracts from the idea of free will. :)

however if you consider "natural processes" then we can say things are "preordained". the sun WILL burn out - mountains will wear away into the sea etc etc

in my opinion........


for instance - if you go to a shop to buy a sandwich - your choices are limited in your sandwich selection that the shop has. if that shop only had egg mayo it was "pre-ordained" that you would buy egg mayo - not the tuna sweetcorn you would of chose given the idea of free will as a stand alone idea. :lol:


Simple--go to another shop or go home and make your own :D
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:00 pm

7Believer wrote:
Yes, we can change our future with our actions. And free will is the tool we have to do it.
It everything was preordained then why have jails? Why punish criminals? We obviously punish them.
If there's a God, she'd be heartless to give children deadly/terminal illnesses at birth, right?


Regarding free will, if God's Way was the perfect way for us, knowing that our judgement lacks compared to His perfection, why choose to be imperfect? Why choose to fail?

I don't see how a preordained future conflicts with imprisonment and punishment. They help us learn about right and wrong. As for children with terminal illnesses, maybe that is to teach us about loyalty and faith. Are you more loyal to the child, or to Our Creator? Do you place more importance on the progress of life, or on God's plan for us? Isn't the child's spirit more important than it's flesh? Taken in innocence, the child gets to resist the corruption of evil, and gain surety for Heaven (considering it being too young to be taught to believe in God, I don't think it unlikely to believe that Our God would show it mercy and welcome it into Heaven).

Samzee, no offense taken. I apologise if I'm wrong, but it appears to me like you've abandon your spiritual point of view in favor of a scientifical one. You claim it spiritual, but produce scientific reasoning. It seems you've replaced the devil with the ego. How do you explain the desire for evil? I don't think evolution covers it, as wouldn't that be contradictive?


Are you more loyal to the child, or to Our Creator?


To the child!
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:04 am

7Believer wrote:
SamZee wrote:How could Karma exist in a determinist universe? It would be "fixed" by what's planned to happen... by god. That would be to replace its definition of "a balancing force/law of the universe" with just, "the will of god." Unless that's how you define it.


I think you are correct in assuming my definition, but could you define yours more please? A balance of what, and law stating what?

It is rather difficult to convey how these laws function, but basically "The Law Of Karma" is a balance of energy. Universal energy moves in a circular or spiral pattern. That's why the phrase is "What goes around, comes around" -- it's describing a circular/spiral energetic pattern. Karma exists because nothing is separate from anything else, as expressed by "The Law Of One." So, since everything is actually one, to hurt another is to hurt yourself. "What you measure out to others will be measured back to you." Quod est demonstratum. But The Law Of Karma is so much greater than just the deliverance of retribution. Like every universal law, it knows not of "good" and "bad" as we term these polarities. It functions to recycle these energies, for no energy is ever lost. To reiterate a previous point, The Law Of Karma exists not solely by design, but as a result of the nature of the universe. The nature that is one.

Enough can never be said about the universal laws as there is so much to them. I'd also venture to say that no one can be taught the nature of these laws. They must be learned and intuited by one's self. Hopefully this cracked the door a bit for you. =]
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:45 pm

Samzee, your belief in karma doesn't account for the injustice apparent on earth.

Heartsdreamer, could you please explain in more depth how quantum mechanices negates a plan by Our Loving God? Also, your choice in favor of the child over God indicates you favor personal interest over universal interest. Before I explain in more depth about that, perhaps I should ask your beliefs on Our Lord first.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:04 am

7Believer wrote:Samzee, your belief in karma doesn't account for the injustice apparent on earth.

It does, actually. Again, these notions alone cannot function outside of a grand scheme of philosophy. There's a domino effect that occurs here. Once I answer a question, another is raised. After I answer that question, yet another is raised -- ad infinitum. And with each answer that is given, a bigger question is posed. Therefore I will not explain any further.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby The Eagle » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:21 pm

SamZee wrote:
7Believer wrote:Samzee, your belief in karma doesn't account for the injustice apparent on earth.

It does, actually. Again, these notions alone cannot function outside of a grand scheme of philosophy. There's a domino effect that occurs here. Once I answer a question, another is raised. After I answer that question, yet another is raised -- ad infinitum. And with each answer that is given, a bigger question is posed. Therefore I will not explain any further.

spoken like a wise man - i truly honestly admire this. :cheers:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:03 pm

Oh thank you good sir! Your affirmations are most appreciated. =D
:cheers:
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:57 pm

I think what you are stating is, through karma you believe each person receives what they produce (I again apologise if I'm wrong). This has not proven to be true, as innocents suffer daily. I see you do not wish to discuss your opinion on existence any further. To make a statement about your beliefs, and then ignore counter evidence to their reliability, seems hypocritical to me (please don't consider the use of that word offensively, only descriptively), but I will refrain from asking you questions anyway as I do not desire to upset you.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:30 am

I really appreciate the respectful response. What your saying makes perfect sense. I must say however that I do not ignore counter-evidence such as the tragic fact that countless people suffer daily. If I were to explain my philosophical rationale for these types of things, it would digress from the topic of Karma. ...But now that I think of it, it would actually be more on topic with the original post. Therefore, I will state my beliefs pertaining to the lives of people who struggle to survive. Though I will not go into depth. I firmly believe in reincarnation. I also have quite an understanding of spiritual philosophy. And part of that philosophy is that souls will choose to experience lives of pain and suffering -- before they incarnate. They choose to experience such negativity because they grow immensely from it. A wise (wo)man once said, "Life is like photography, we develop from the negatives." (In 3rd density at least) So as you can see, I do not attribute every negative experience one has to personal Karma. But if we were to steer back to that topic, Karmic retribution most certainly does occur at the reincarnative level. For example, the raper becoming the rapee in his/her next life -- and vice versa. The reason I bring this up is to draw attention to the fact that the Law Of Karma exists much deeper than just the human experience. That's why it's a universal law. Meaning it potentially operates up through an infinitely larger scale than this third density physical illusion our conscious mind experiences. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's a good thing that people are starving to death or being victimized by genocide, what I am saying is that at the spiritual level it's not in vain. And now you see why I didn't want to continue, because as I said before, every answer will consequently attract bigger questions. And thus the answers become increasingly more broad scale and can never be done justice.

=]
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby heartsdreamer » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:01 am

7Believer wrote:Samzee, your belief in karma doesn't account for the injustice apparent on earth.

Heartsdreamer, could you please explain in more depth how quantum mechanices negates a plan by Our Loving God? Also, your choice in favor of the child over God indicates you favor personal interest over universal interest. Before I explain in more depth about that, perhaps I should ask your beliefs on Our Lord first.


"karma doesn't account for the injustice apparent on earth."

Karma and all religions have a problem explaining why do we suffer.

Why does a poor child in Darfur dies at the hands of man with a machete? Karma and Religion FAIL here!
No GOD will allow a child to die this way. That's why I don't believe in any Gods/Goddesses/etc

Quantum Mechanics tries explains the duality of elementary particles--it's either a wave or a particle?
Quantum Mechanics deals with probabilities.

Also, Quantum Mechanics tries to describe the interactions between energy and matter. It's no interested in proving or disproving the existence of God.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:57 pm

Why does a poor child in Darfur dies at the hands of man with a machete? Karma and Religion FAIL here!
No GOD will allow a child to die this way. That's why I don't believe in any Gods/Goddesses/etc


Concerning the child, the spirit is more important than the flesh. How do you know that child wouldn't be allowed to grow up in Heaven, where life would definately be a much better experience? Consider also that the reason for such things like this happening is part of a broad scale universally fundamental lesson; choosing to follow our own will instead of Our Lord's will. If three generations before that man killed that child, all humanity had submitted completely to Our Lord, do you think the chain of events that lead up to that man's actions would still be the same?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby The Eagle » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:45 pm

7Believer wrote:To consider that God doesn't have a plan for each of us, and leaves our future to chance, would suggest that The Creator of existence is not in control of it. I think that is a mistake. If He was not in control, why would He intervene with humanity in order to preserve it, showing the desire for the progress of life, and the intelligence for planning (revealed by His Law; virtue as opposed to sin, so we would not destroy ourselves, but would seek to preserve ourselves), and yet at the same time disregard the many possibilities that could lead to our destruction by His lack of control?


but yet the "closest organisation" to god in your opinion - the catholic church has been responsible for covering up evil. if god wasw in control would he not protect the innocents? - i.e. the chilren that cahtolic priests raped. this means that god allows children to get raped by the organisation that is closest to him?

no sorry doesnt cut it....
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:59 pm

7Believer wrote:Concerning the child, the spirit is more important than the flesh. How do you know that child wouldn't be allowed to grow up in Heaven, where life would definately be a much better experience? Consider also that the reason for such things like this happening is part of a broad scale universally fundamental lesson; choosing to follow our own will instead of Our Lord's will. If three generations before that man killed that child, all humanity had submitted completely to Our Lord, do you think the chain of events that lead up to that man's actions would still be the same?


Please stop being blindfolded for a moment. Please, I beg you.

WE, not god/goddess/gods, WE are the owners of our bodies. WE decide what to do with them, as long as it does not harms other. That is why rapes are bad, that is why murdering is bad.

A live is a live. Killing a child, regardless of your beliefs, IS MURDER.
"Spirituality" is a code word of sorts: "I have a confession to make — I believe in God! I'm so sorry!" - "Your 'science' cannot explain my transcendental experiences!" - "I'm a quack. Give me all your money."
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:46 pm

Please stop being blindfolded for a moment. Please, I beg you.

WE, not god/goddess/gods, WE are the owners of our bodies. WE decide what to do with them, as long as it does not harms other. That is why rapes are bad, that is why murdering is bad.

A live is a live. Killing a child, regardless of your beliefs, IS MURDER.


How is it that you think I am blindfolded? Regarding you being in control of your own body, can you make it never make a mistake, or is it your desire that your body makes mistakes? Do you make yourself get angry, upset, scared, confused, depressed, forgetful? I think science would disagree with you if you claimed that you do.

I am curious as to what you mean by we decide what to do with our bodies, as long as we don't harm others. Are you suggesting that when we do harm others, we are not in control of our own bodies? As to why bad is bad, that isn't dependant on human decision. A very large meteor destroying our planet is considered bad (unless you think human extinction is a good thing), yet has nothing to do with human decision. I did not claim that killing a child wasn't murder. My friend, by trying to convert others to Christianity, I am actually contributing to preventing murder.

Morality between atheists and Christians speaks for itself. For atheists, I think it is only what is in their best interest that defines their morals, unless they borrow from religions like Christianity. If someone can offer evidence to the contrary, please do so.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:58 pm

7Believer wrote:How is it that you think I am blindfolded? Regarding you being in control of your own body, can you make it never make a mistake, or is it your desire that your body makes mistakes? Do you make yourself get angry, upset, scared, confused, depressed, forgetful? I think science would disagree with you if you claimed that you do.

You are right about that, science would disagree but me. BUT,
science recognizes a consicous mind (which we control), and a
subconsioud mind which we do not. The brain is a mysterious machine,
which we yet not understand at even 20% of what it really is...

7Believer wrote:I am curious as to what you mean by we decide what to do with our bodies, as long as we don't harm others. Are you suggesting that when we do harm others, we are not in control of our own bodies? As to why bad is bad, that isn't dependant on human decision. A very large meteor destroying our planet is considered bad (unless you think human extinction is a good thing), yet has nothing to do with human decision. I did not claim that killing a child wasn't murder. My friend, by trying to convert others to Christianity, I am actually contributing to preventing murder.

Bad is what does others harm. The meteor is bad, because it will harm others by killing them.
I also did not say that you supporter murderers or did not recognize murder. What I am saying, is that in the bible, at some point, a man has to 'sacrifice' (kill) his own son. Had (If I remember right he did not) he killed his son, he would have commited a murder. It does not matters if he thought that 'god' was speaking to him. A life is a life... And it is even more valuable when we are innocent and we do not recognize between good and evil, such as that kid.

7Believer wrote:Morality between atheists and Christians speaks for itself. For atheists, I think it is only what is in their best interest that defines their morals, unless they borrow from religions like Christianity. If someone can offer evidence to the contrary, please do so.

Christians who preach are working for their own interests... For, I seriously doubt that their god commanded them to do so. Based on this evidence, that we do not have proof that god(s) exist, we can only assume people themselves decide to preach. By doing this, they further the influence of their religion, and by proxy, their own interests... For it is THEIR religion, not everybody's.
"Spirituality" is a code word of sorts: "I have a confession to make — I believe in God! I'm so sorry!" - "Your 'science' cannot explain my transcendental experiences!" - "I'm a quack. Give me all your money."
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:57 pm

heartsdreamer wrote:Not!

If everything that is preordained then all the future's causes and conditions should already be present. If that were so, nothing could stop them from expressing themselves at once and that's illogical.

So we have free will :eat:


Don't know if anyone has said this already, but free will being defined as an uninfluenced choice is limited to the amount of influence in your life.

For example being pressured to smoke a cigarette and then choosing to smoke. Would you still have made that same choice without all the pressure to do it? If your choice is influenced is it free?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:37 pm

Daniel24 wrote:
heartsdreamer wrote:Not!

If everything that is preordained then all the future's causes and conditions should already be present. If that were so, nothing could stop them from expressing themselves at once and that's illogical.

So we have free will :eat:


Don't know if anyone has said this already, but free will being defined as an uninfluenced choice is limited to the amount of influence in your life.

For example being pressured to smoke a cigarette and then choosing to smoke. Would you still have made that same choice without all the pressure to do it? If your choice is influenced is it free?

Well, technically you can fight your way out or run away, if you are willing to take the risk.
If that were me, I would run away. After all, I have a deep hate for the smoke and not only that, but should you smoke you are a slave of the drug.

So... Sometimes to defend your free will you have to stand up for it.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby SamZee » Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:34 pm

Daniel24 wrote:
heartsdreamer wrote:Not!

If everything that is preordained then all the future's causes and conditions should already be present. If that were so, nothing could stop them from expressing themselves at once and that's illogical.

So we have free will :eat:


Don't know if anyone has said this already, but free will being defined as an uninfluenced choice is limited to the amount of influence in your life.

For example being pressured to smoke a cigarette and then choosing to smoke. Would you still have made that same choice without all the pressure to do it? If your choice is influenced is it free?

Very intelligent question.

If I were to answer that question, I would say that that's where it gets quite complicated. To reiterate the example, you choose to smoke after having been pressured into it. Does that influence override your free will? Depends. When the person pressured you into it, despite you opposing the idea, they infringed upon your free will. In other words, they caused you to think or do something that was at least consciously uninvited. However, it helps to look at it as an "action/reaction" type of occurrence. Therefore, if my free will is being infringed upon, it may indicate that I have infringed on someone else's. And now we're back to Karma, the universal balance. "That which you measure out to others shall be measured back to you." That's one way of looking at it. Another possibility would be cosmic catalyst. In other words, maybe I haven't necessarily infringed upon another's free will, but at some level of my being, I'm attracting and therefore inviting that infringement. I'm attracting it because it's necessary for me. Necessary to change something about my consciousness for my own development. And this is where it gets difficult to understand. At some level of my being, I chose to experience negative cosmic catalyst. This level is veiled from my conscious mind, but it's very much a part of me nonetheless. Now it gets even more complicated because to most people, free will would only apply to our conscious mind, therefore if we're making subconscious choices, then it's not free will, and I would disagree with that. I think that free will applies to the totality of our being. Problem is, not many people know much beyond their conscious mind, so naturally that becomes the limit of their understanding of topics deep as free will. Ultimately that's what makes it impossible for most people to truly grasp subjects such as the universal laws for example. I think in order to begin really understanding such things, one must transcend the limits of the conscious mind.

So lets get back to the smoking example. I've established that to nearly force such a thing on another is to infringe upon their free will. Then you say, "Okay well even if it was an infringement, ultimately it was their choice to smoke despite the outside influence." If that makes sense to you and you believe it, great. That's just dandy, for it is your free will to believe that. In fact I think whatever you believe is right for you. But what I believe is that ultimately, the outside influence is but an attraction in itself. It's a subconscious energetic invitation for that which mirrors some part of yourself. It's a pretty radical belief, I know. For example when I fall ill, I look for the problem within. If someone attacks me in anyway, I look for the problem within. I've never gotten into a car accident thankfully, but even if I did and someone else was technically at fault, I would look for the problem within. It sounds ridiculous but I know that by the law of attraction or karma, somehow some part of me requires some catalyst to change or improve. Be it illness, negative greeting, or seemingly bad luck, at a level much deeper than my conscious, nothing exists outside of me, just as nothing is separate from anything else. And so you have the greatest universal law of them all. The Law Of One. =]
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:49 am

7Believer wrote:
Please stop being blindfolded for a moment. Please, I beg you.

WE, not god/goddess/gods, WE are the owners of our bodies. WE decide what to do with them, as long as it does not harms other. That is why rapes are bad, that is why murdering is bad.

A live is a live. Killing a child, regardless of your beliefs, IS MURDER.


How is it that you think I am blindfolded? Regarding you being in control of your own body, can you make it never make a mistake, or is it your desire that your body makes mistakes? Do you make yourself get angry, upset, scared, confused, depressed, forgetful? I think science would disagree with you if you claimed that you do.

I am curious as to what you mean by we decide what to do with our bodies, as long as we don't harm others. Are you suggesting that when we do harm others, we are not in control of our own bodies? As to why bad is bad, that isn't dependant on human decision. A very large meteor destroying our planet is considered bad (unless you think human extinction is a good thing), yet has nothing to do with human decision. I did not claim that killing a child wasn't murder. My friend, by trying to convert others to Christianity, I am actually contributing to preventing murder.

Morality between atheists and Christians speaks for itself. For atheists, I think it is only what is in their best interest that defines their morals, unless they borrow from religions like Christianity. If someone can offer evidence to the contrary, please do so.


What is wrong with being an Atheist? Lots of people believe lots of different things; not everyone believes in god, but to make such a broad generalization about one group seems ignorant. I don’t mean that as an insult, but in the literal sense of the word. Or maybe you just take it personally that there are people out there that don’t believe in god. Also, I don’t understand why you think by converting people to Christianity you are preventing murder. Christians, being human beings are not perfect and are just as capable of murder as anyone else on the planet.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Tal » Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:11 pm

7Believer wrote:
Morality between atheists and Christians speaks for itself. For atheists, I think it is only what is in their best interest that defines their morals, unless they borrow from religions like Christianity. If someone can offer evidence to the contrary, please do so.


This is, without a doubt, the most ignorant and benighted comment I've read in this forum for a very long time. It's such a ludicrous statement that I almost laughed.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Tal » Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:21 pm

7Believer wrote:
I am curious as to what you mean by we decide what to do with our bodies, as long as we don't harm others. Are you suggesting that when we do harm others, we are not in control of our own bodies? As to why bad is bad, that isn't dependant on human decision. A very large meteor destroying our planet is considered bad (unless you think human extinction is a good thing), yet has nothing to do with human decision. I did not claim that killing a child wasn't murder. My friend, by trying to convert others to Christianity, I am actually contributing to preventing murder.

But you claimed everything we do is preordained so basically, by your own admission, you're subverting the will of your God by your "preventative contribution". Isn't the killing of that child part of God's plan for that child? According to you it is, so by saying it's wrong, you're also saying that God is wrong. Seriously, you can't have it both ways.
Either murder, rape, larcery, war and disease are all part of a preordained plan made by your God, which makes everthing that happens His Will and so be it, or they're just plain wrong and there's no predestination and we all are responsible for our own lives and destiny.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:01 pm

Tal wrote:
7Believer wrote:
I am curious as to what you mean by we decide what to do with our bodies, as long as we don't harm others. Are you suggesting that when we do harm others, we are not in control of our own bodies? As to why bad is bad, that isn't dependant on human decision. A very large meteor destroying our planet is considered bad (unless you think human extinction is a good thing), yet has nothing to do with human decision. I did not claim that killing a child wasn't murder. My friend, by trying to convert others to Christianity, I am actually contributing to preventing murder.

But you claimed everything we do is preordained so basically, by your own admission, you're subverting the will of your God by your "preventative contribution". Isn't the killing of that child part of God's plan for that child? According to you it is, so by saying it's wrong, you're also saying that God is wrong. Seriously, you can't have it both ways.
Either murder, rape, larcery, war and disease are all part of a preordained plan made by your God, which makes everthing that happens His Will and so be it, or they're just plain wrong and there's no predestination and we all are responsible for our own lives and destiny.

Bravo! Well said.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:01 am

DRLHyper wrote:You are right about that, science would disagree but me. BUT,
science recognizes a consicous mind (which we control), and a
subconsioud mind which we do not. The brain is a mysterious machine,
which we yet not understand at even 20% of what it really is...


I think the root cause of the uncontrollable symptoms previously mentioned is defined as a failure to respond which causes stress. Although science cannot explain the reason for the failure to respond, Christianity can; the devil. My point is, you are not the only one in control of your body. Something else causes it to do things that you do not. It is repeatedly mentioned in The Bible that the flesh of man (mind and body) is easily corruptible by evil, but the soul (the real you) can defend against this corruption through the spirit (your connection with Our Lord). If you have ever observed someone with a strong connection to Our Lord as opposed to someone without such, the latter often appears fidgety, unfocused and nervous.

Bad is what does others harm. The meteor is bad, because it will harm others by killing them.
I also did not say that you supporter murderers or did not recognize murder. What I am saying, is that in the bible, at some point, a man has to 'sacrifice' (kill) his own son. Had (If I remember right he did not) he killed his son, he would have commited a murder. It does not matters if he thought that 'god' was speaking to him. A life is a life... And it is even more valuable when we are innocent and we do not recognize between good and evil, such as that kid.


So then, you agree with me that good and bad are not dependant on human decision. For the story of Abraham and Isaac that you are referring to, I think that was a test of service to Our Lord over service to ourself, which Abraham indeed passed. He was willing to sacrifice his own son (sound familiar?) and risk the consequences involved (punishment for sin, for example) in order to obey Our Lord. I think he knew that Our Lord was more intelligent than him, and that what he perceived as a wrong, could ultimately lead to a right in the plan of Our Creator. He trusted in his faith, and it did not let him down. I think the lesson of that event is, even if you are not aware of why Our Lord does something, if you trust in Him, you will not be disappointed. How does this affect us today? In the same way. Even though we do not understand why Our Lord's plan has us killing each other, if we trust in Him, we will not be disappointed. For Christians, death is only the end of the flesh, not the soul.

Christians who preach are working for their own interests... For, I seriously doubt that their god commanded them to do so. Based on this evidence, that we do not have proof that god(s) exist, we can only assume people themselves decide to preach. By doing this, they further the influence of their religion, and by proxy, their own interests... For it is THEIR religion, not everybody's.


Actually, Our Lord did instruct us to preach:

MATTHEW 28:18-20 NKJ
18 Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

You may not have proof of His existence, but I do, as do others like me. Christianity is not a man made religion. The only way you can believe that is if you think early Christians were liars. If you are aware of what Christianity teaches, you will realize that it is not a self-serving religion. In fact, quite the opposite. Early Christians had nothing to look forward to in terms of personal gain by spreading Christianity; on the contrary, they were made aware that they would actually die because of it. Knowing this, they still devoted themselves to spreading Our Lord's Word. Why? Christianity teaches perfection; complete devotion to Our Lord, and then to each other, to the point of sacrificing our own life for the greater good. The devil desires anything but perfection, for perfection is uncorruptible.

What is wrong with being an Atheist? Lots of people believe lots of different things; not everyone believes in god, but to make such a broad generalization about one group seems ignorant. I don’t mean that as an insult, but in the literal sense of the word. Or maybe you just take it personally that there are people out there that don’t believe in god. Also, I don’t understand why you think by converting people to Christianity you are preventing murder. Christians, being human beings are not perfect and are just as capable of murder as anyone else on the planet.


The point at which a Christian stops practicing Christianity, is the point at which they are no longer technically Christian. Therefore, Christians are incapable of sin. As with other religions, the point at which you stop practicing their way is the point at which you are no longer technically following that religion. Atheists are indeed capable of committing crimes, however. If an atheist commits a crime, they are still considered an atheist. Also, do you think people who believe in hell are more likely to commit crimes than those who don't? Aethists have only man made law to follow, but since they are capable of breaking it without being caught, they have less to fear by committing a crime. Judgement by Our Lord is not escapable, however, and those who believe in Him through Christianity know that they will be punished for sinning. Indeed, all crime committed can be said to be done by non-religion (positive, anyway; there are satanists) affiliated people.

7Believer wrote:
Morality between atheists and Christians speaks for itself. For atheists, I think it is only what is in their best interest that defines their morals, unless they borrow from religions like Christianity. If someone can offer evidence to the contrary, please do so.


This is, without a doubt, the most ignorant and benighted comment I've read in this forum for a very long time. It's such a ludicrous statement that I almost laughed.


Yet, you did not offer any evidence proving otherwise.

But you claimed everything we do is preordained so basically, by your own admission, you're subverting the will of your God by your "preventative contribution". Isn't the killing of that child part of God's plan for that child? According to you it is, so by saying it's wrong, you're also saying that God is wrong. Seriously, you can't have it both ways.
Either murder, rape, larcery, war and disease are all part of a preordained plan made by your God, which makes everthing that happens His Will and so be it, or they're just plain wrong and there's no predestination and we all are responsible for our own lives and destiny.


I am not undermining Our Lord's Will by following it. He desires that I "contribute prevention" of sin. Our Lord is not under the same law as man, for He is The Creator. All life belongs to Him, and is subject to Him; not the other way around. As I have explained before, death is only of the flesh, not the soul. All those innocently killed on earth are still alive as souls, and will receive justice when Our Lord gives it. For some, that can be right away. For others that have sinned, it can take awhile. All that happens is according to Our Lord's plan. He is never wrong, as He is always perfect. In my other posts on here I have explained a reason for the existence of evil. First hand knowledge of the consequences of disobeying Our Lord. Even those who are innocent are affected by those who do not follow Our Lord's plan. For example; if a storm killed many people on a cruise ship, had the one responsible for planning the cruise been in communication with Our Lord, they could have been warned about the storm. The storm was following Our Lord's plan for it, though. It was part of the natural order of things. We have Our Lord's plan for us available in Christianity, where He states exactly what it is He desires we do.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Tal » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:17 pm

Now you're claiming that not only do you know the mind of God, but also that you deliberately subvert his will because you think you should. That makes you a double sinner then, right? In that single post you've contradicted everything you claimed previously. So you're either a terrible hypocrite or you have no idea what you're talking about.

As for the atheist comment...my father's side of the family are all atheists, have all made some incredible contributions to their communities without expectation of any type of payment (which is more than I can say for you. Let's face it, you do good so you won't go to hell and to get God's attention.) That's all I'll tell you because for you to make that comment in the first place means that you're a closed-minded bigot and there's no point offering anything to a closed book.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:46 pm

To 7Believer:

God by definition is perfect, not people so by your definition of what it takes to be Christian it has become an impossible feet. By your own definition you are not a practicing Christian. Either way though if you Convert someone to Christianity and they commit a crime they are still committing a crime and you are not preventing anything.

I’m sorry, but your logic borders on psychotic. I suggest you sit down with your bible and have someone interpret that thing for you. As far as morality goes you seem to claim ownership of it and lend it out to atheists. In comparison to every other post I have read in this forum you have actually shown the least amount of morality. What does your bible say about speaking out against atheism?
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