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So everything that will happen is already preordained?

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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:04 am

7Believer wrote:Free will is what seperates the sentient from the non-sentient. Sentience has choices, and can act by itself. Non-sentience has no choices, and can only react to sentience (including the domino effect of nature).

If everything is preordained then we are merely puppets to this god of yours...


How so? Puppets have no choices. We do.

While I agree on your first point, I disagree on the second one. Not because the statement itself is wrong - it is correct - but because it contradicts your notion of predestination.

Put simply: if your life is set before you are even born, then you can not be held accountable for your evil deeds, nor be considered altruist or good, either. After all, every 'good' or 'bad' action you do, was destined for you to commit before you were even born. You do not have a choice over this; you will do it and have no way to avoid it. Unless you suicide, but technically we could argue that your suicide was predestined, too.
"Spirituality" is a code word of sorts: "I have a confession to make — I believe in God! I'm so sorry!" - "Your 'science' cannot explain my transcendental experiences!" - "I'm a quack. Give me all your money."
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:07 pm

if your life is set before you are even born, then you can not be held accountable for your evil deeds, nor be considered altruist or good, either.


If somebody tells me that they are going to steal something, and then they do it, why would they not be held accountable for their sin simply because I had foreknowledge of it?

You do not have a choice over this; you will do it and have no way to avoid it.


I see where you are stuck, my friend. You think that predestination forces a choice, thus making free will an illusion, but the only illusion is that predestination forces anything. A choice isn't a choice if it is forced. In order for a choice to be a true choice, the chooser must choose it for their own reasons. That's what free will is, and predestination doesn't inhibit that.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:30 pm

The analogy I used is correct. We are all just puppets if this is how the world works because preordained means we move forward inexorably to our fate meaning no matter the choices we make we cannot change what we will become. Every choice, every action, every word leads you to your fate.

One cannot make free choices in a world that is already laid out for them step by step. A choice is not a choice in a preordained world. The choice itself is preordained no matter the possibilities presented. The only thing that makes this not true is if the universe does not function like this.

Like I said, the world does not work like this. We are free to make our own choices and to determine our own fate. The only thing that stands in the way of that are other poeple. To put it simply you are most free when you have no outside influence and least free when others impose themselves on you. Yes you are still given many choices, but with others imposing their will impedes others, removes possibilities and opportunities, and presents other choices rather then proceeding in a natural uninfluenced course. Stem cell research for example, look at all the road blocks put in place to stop that science from progressing. How freely do you think they operate?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:45 pm

7Believer wrote:If somebody tells me that they are going to steal something, and then they do it, why would they not be held accountable for their sin simply because I had foreknowledge of it?

You are missing the point.

The thing is: if their lives were preordained, then they have no choice to avoid becoming thieves. Everything they do will inebitably lead to the situation of theft; unless, of course, their lives were preordained not. Then the choice to become a thief would effectively come from their minds alone; so, none can be blamed, but them, of their acts.
7Believer wrote:I see where you are stuck, my friend. You think that predestination forces a choice, thus making free will an illusion, but the only illusion is that predestination forces anything. A choice isn't a choice if it is forced. In order for a choice to be a true choice, the chooser must choose it for their own reasons. That's what free will is, and predestination doesn't inhibit that.

Actually, I see predestination as the lack of choices, not the forcing of choices. Predestination states that you will do certain thing X at point Y in your life. Theorically you could state that free is anything before and/or after that moment, but then it would not be predestination entirely, only of a mere action. (Which again, does not undermine the concept that if that action you are predestined to make is evil, you are not evil, since you did not have a choice or not to commit the action; anything you did would have the same outcome).
"Spirituality" is a code word of sorts: "I have a confession to make — I believe in God! I'm so sorry!" - "Your 'science' cannot explain my transcendental experiences!" - "I'm a quack. Give me all your money."
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:18 am

You said that I have missed your point, yet I have already addressed it several times. I believe you have missed my point, because you keep repeating yourself.

A choice is something you support for your own reasons. Predestination doesn't negate the reasons why you choose what you do. Whether your choice is known ahead of time or not doesn't change the fact that you still chose to do it by yourself.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:23 am

7Believer wrote:A choice is something you support for your own reasons.
Wrong. A choice is a selection of one out of two or more alternatives.

Predestination doesn't negate the reasons why you choose what you do.
Yes, it does. If everything is preordained, then there are no alternatives from which you can select your actions.

There is no choice under predestination, only a world where reality unfolds as if everything were already on a set course.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby The Eagle » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:44 am

Dorn wrote:
7Believer wrote:A choice is something you support for your own reasons.
Wrong. A choice is a selection of one out of two or more alternatives.

Predestination doesn't negate the reasons why you choose what you do.
Yes, it does. If everything is preordained, then there are no alternatives from which you can select your actions.

There is no choice under predestination, only a world where reality unfolds as if everything were already on a set course.


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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:32 am

How do you define predestination, Mr. 7believer?
"Spirituality" is a code word of sorts: "I have a confession to make — I believe in God! I'm so sorry!" - "Your 'science' cannot explain my transcendental experiences!" - "I'm a quack. Give me all your money."
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:26 am

Wrong. A choice is a selection of one out of two or more alternatives.


The word support infers agreement, which itself infers acceptance, which itself infers to accept; hence, to choose. My definition wasn't wrong.

Yes, it does. If everything is preordained, then there are no alternatives from which you can select your actions.

There is no choice under predestination, only a world where reality unfolds as if everything were already on a set course.


You haven't addressed the point that when you choose something, you do so for your own reasons, not because you are forced to do it. Continuing to ignore the factor that personal reason plays in choice will not further this conversation anywhere.

I define predestination as a positive prediction, DRLHyper.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:21 am

7Believer wrote:
Wrong. A choice is a selection of one out of two or more alternatives.
The word support infers agreement, which itself infers acceptance, which itself infers to accept; hence, to choose. My definition wasn't wrong.
Complete drivel. I wasn't debating that point; I was telling you in all frankness what choice implies.

You haven't addressed the point that when you choose something, you do so for your own reasons, not because you are forced to do it.
It is irrelevant whether you choose it as a result of free will or an unconditional drive. The point is that you, the subject, made the selection in real time--as opposed to being an event predestined to happen since time immemorial.

I define predestination as a positive prediction, DRLHyper.
I beg your pardon, but the Cambridge Dictionary flatly disagrees with you. Predestination is the belief that people have no control over events because these things are controlled by God or by fate.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:04 am

Dorn wrote:
I define predestination as a positive prediction, DRLHyper.
I beg your pardon, but the Cambridge Dictionary flatly disagrees with you. Predestination is the belief that people have no control over events because these things are controlled by God or by fate.

Alas, a positive prediction does not means the action was supposed to happen that way; it could simply be the effect of chance.

"I predict Team A will beat Team B by 2 points". So when Team A wins, was it predestined to win?

I do not think so. I think it was because Team A worker harder than Team B. If Team A was predestined to win, then all of B's efforts would have been futile from the start, so why not just sit and way? B was going to losse anyway, so why bother?

No. A won because it tried harder than B, so, it victory was not assured until the end of the match.
"Spirituality" is a code word of sorts: "I have a confession to make — I believe in God! I'm so sorry!" - "Your 'science' cannot explain my transcendental experiences!" - "I'm a quack. Give me all your money."
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:53 pm

But when we speak of predestination the true definition means gods will over us. So if everything is predetermined then it was predetermined for team A to work harder then team B which led them to a win.

If your future is already determined then so are all of your actions leading up to your fate. There is no way around this.

The alternative is that everything is random, meaning you make your choices based on what you are currently feeling, thinking, mood and anything else. This means that if you were to relive the same day twice and experience it exactly the same as the first time you may actually make different choices the second time around even if you have no memory of the first event. You may encounter different people as they are reliving the same event differently as well and your day may end up completely different the second time then the first. Of course this is hypothetical, but do you see my point.

Imagine taking a test at school on a day when you are in an impatient mood, you will do moor poorly then if you took that exact same test on a day when you are in a good mood. Though it is the exact same test you have two different results. I believe the world around us functions in much the same way.

Like I have read many times on this site; we are put in situations to learn, and be tested, then everyday must be a test, but if everything is predetermined then what is the point, we can have a bad day, get hit by a car, get fired from a job, and even if we could relive the day again we wouldn’t be able to change a single thing because in the end it was god and not us that made all that happen.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:51 am

I wasn't debating that point


I apologize. Context tricks are becoming a frequent encounter for me. Perhaps you were debating the "for your own reasons" part. If you choose something for your own reasons, whether it be feelings you accept, experience you follow, or instinct you rely on, then the cause (although, not technically initial) comes from you personally. If the cause doesn't allow you to willfully influence the choice, then it is literally forced, because you have no say in the matter, and is therefore not a choice at all.

It is irrelevant whether you choose it as a result of free will or an unconditional drive.


It's very relevant, since free will is literally a choice based on personal reasons. To ignore this factor is like ignoring the factor that the color orange plays in a debate about the origins of the name of the food orange.

There are many definitions for predestination, and I can post ones without your underlined addition, but the context of the meaning remains the same; a positive (as in accurate) prediction.

DRLHyper, you seem to be confirming my point indirectly. A prediction doesn't cause things to happen, it just depicts how they will happen. Team A won because they worked harder. Whether somebody predicted that Team A would win or not wouldn't change the reason why Team A won.

Daniel24, randomness doesn't negate causes, it just doesn't reveal them. Predestination doesn't change the fact that in order to learn something, you must technically experience the actual learning itself. Perhaps I can shed some light on why bad days happen:

Consider the possibility that Satan challenged God because he thought that he could do a better job than our loving Lord. Humanity is the challenge; both God and Satan each try to influence humans to their side, in equal measure. Well, God does so in equal measure, but only in response to what Satan does, who doesn't even care about equality. Bad days are Satan's attempts at claiming your soul. He uses suffering to drive others away from God, and then sinful desire to sway them to his side. When there seems to be more bad days then good, this is because God is storing His "equal measure" influence to release it in a bigger impact. The point of all this is to prove that humans would choose God over Satan given equal influence by both. I refer to influence as information and action.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:05 pm

7Believer wrote:DRLHyper, you seem to be confirming my point indirectly. A prediction doesn't cause things to happen, it just depicts how they will happen. Team A won because they worked harder. Whether somebody predicted that Team A would win or not wouldn't change the reason why Team A won.

So everything is more or less a gamble, correct?

Because after all, that is what a prediction is. A gamble. I could easily change "I think" with "I bet", so "I bet that Team A will win."

Yet, the Bible states that gambling is wrong.
"Spirituality" is a code word of sorts: "I have a confession to make — I believe in God! I'm so sorry!" - "Your 'science' cannot explain my transcendental experiences!" - "I'm a quack. Give me all your money."
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:46 am

7Believer wrote:There are many definitions for predestination, and I can post ones without your underlined addition, but the context of the meaning remains the same; a positive (as in accurate) prediction.
Source your claim or concede the point. Once you start making up your own definitions, you have stepped out of the boundaries of language.

Consider the possibility that Satan challenged God because he thought that he could do a better job than our loving Lord. Humanity is the challenge; both God and Satan each try to influence humans to their side, in equal measure.
That duality signifies Manicheism, not Christianity.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:01 pm

DRLHyper, a prediction can be synonymous with a guess, but a prediction from our loving Lord isn't a guess, because He actually knows it's going to happen.

Dorn, I don't fabricate for pride's sake, my friend. Sin is not something I care to promote through personal action. For definitions without the addition of no control, click on "more" at the first definition in black that appears when you google "predestination definition". They provide several, with sources.

Preordain is mentioned, which states that God decides the future's outcome, but us having no control over our fate and God predicting our fate are not one and the same. We have the ability to choose; our choices cause reactions; these reactions make the future. A prediction doesn't negate the factor that personal choice plays in our actions.

I don't claim The Bible as my only source for information about God; I rely on communication from Him directly. This is probably why you have related my information to Mani, not having encountered it yourself in The Bible. I understand that you would require a logical foundation to build any faith in my claims about our Lord's communication with me. I hope to build one for you, with my book. Until then, maybe you could try communicating with God yourself to see if I am telling you the truth.

I don't have anything more to mention on this subject right now, so I will depart from the thread. If anybody requests a reply, with positive (and I don't mean that biasedly) intentions, then I will provide one. Otherwise, I hope my departure will prevent any opportunities for unnecessary mistakes to happen.
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Predestination =/= Prediction

Postby Dorn » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:55 am

7Believer wrote:Dorn, I don't fabricate for pride's sake, my friend.
Why fabricate the definition in the first place, regardless of cause? Why not rely on the mutual agreement established by the dictionary?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:04 pm

I don't think I have fabricated my definition. You got yours from one dictionary source, and I got mine from another. They differed regarding control.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:51 am

7Believer wrote:I don't think I have fabricated my definition.
You did type "I don't fabricate for pride's sake," which implies that you do in fact fabricate the definition, albeit not for the sake of pride.

You got yours from one dictionary source, and I got mine from another.
You have as of yet not sourced your definition. Once we get past that obstacle, God willing, I am able to understand what you are communicating.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:34 am

I see that the context tricks are effecting you too, now. I don't fabricate for any reason. My comment about not desiring to promote sin through personal action should have hinted at that. This is part of what I referred to as the demonic factor in our other discussion, although you may have other reasons for why mistakes happen.

I have sourced several definitions. If you had followed the instructions that I provided, you would have found sources like: wordnetweb.princeton; wikipedia; academics.triton; encarta.msn; newworldencyclopedia; www.answers.org; theosociety.

I think your definition is based on a calvinism version, and not a general one.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:02 am

7Believer wrote:I see that the context tricks are effecting you too, now. I don't fabricate for any reason.
Yes. That is what I have been trying to get at from the very beginning.

I have sourced several definitions. If you had followed the instructions that I provided, you would have found sources like: wordnetweb.princeton; wikipedia; academics.triton; encarta.msn; newworldencyclopedia; www.answers.org; theosociety.
You haven't provided a specific definition from any of the above the sources. Merging them into new definitions is not conducive to sourcing and exacting the meaning of a word.

I think your definition is based on a calvinism version, and not a general one.
Partly, yes. I used a watered-down version courtesy of the Cambridge dictionary: "the belief that people have no control over events because these things are controlled by God or by fate" (my emphases).

However, if I rely on the Oxford version, the aspect of divine selection becomes more pronounced: "the doctrine that God has ordained all that will happen, especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others" (particularly associated with the teachings of St. Augustine of Hippo and of Calvin).

What both definitions have in common is that they exclude choice for the subject. Now, if you can find a definition of predestination which satisfies choice for both God and subject, then I'll be happy to concede.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:20 pm

You haven't provided a specific definition from any of the above the sources. Merging them into new definitions is not conducive to sourcing and exacting the meaning of a word.


The point of the several sources was to verify that not all definitions of predestination indicate a lack of humanity's control over the future.

What both definitions have in common is that they exclude choice for the subject. Now, if you can find a definition of predestination which satisfies choice for both God and subject, then I'll be happy to concede.

"the doctrine that God has ordained all that will happen, especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others"


Do you agree that ordain is synonymous with decree? To decree doesn't imply oppression.

My point is that free will is the ability to choose. We have this ability. You are choosing to read right now. To claim that humanity is incapable of choice once a prediction is made is fallacious.

Our choices determine the future. We are not forced every moment of our lives to do something against our will. When we act in accordance to our will, we are supporting our actions; we are choosing to do what we do. If somebody knows ahead of time what we are going to do, that doesn't place an automatic ban on all our choices.

The definition provided above doesn't state what I've stated, but it allows choice to be had by humanity.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:00 pm

7Believer wrote:
[Predestination is] "the doctrine that God has ordained all that will happen, especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others"
Do you agree that ordain is synonymous with decree? To decree doesn't imply oppression.
We must remain within the definition, otherwise we are changing the meaning of the word.

Moreover, that which is ordained--unalterably prearranged--is incompatible with choice. The alterable (choice) and the unalterable (predestined) are mutually exclusive.

My point is that free will is the ability to choose. We have this ability. You are choosing to read right now. To claim that humanity is incapable of choice once a prediction is made is fallacious.
Free will, like God, cannot be proven. As such, free will can only be believed and thereby instantiated as an a priori condition of being human.

If somebody knows ahead of time what we are going to do, that doesn't place an automatic ban on all our choices.
But since it doesn't involve a prediction but rather a law-bound causation (predestination), then it necessarily removes both alterability (non-volitional) and choice (volitional).
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:51 am

Choice doesn't mean alterability. Choice means the acceptance of something caused by yourself, and not forced by another. Alterability means the ability to be changed, and allows for anybody to be the cause. If a man is given a prediction, and he tries everything in his power to alter that prediction, which indirectly causes that prediction to happen, he was not forced into accepting anything. In fact, he could still refuse to accept it even after it happens. Likewise, if a man is given a prediction, and he allows it to transpire, simply by ignoring it and doing what he would have done anyway, he also wasn't forced into accepting anything. He chose to accept it.

I think what you are trying to state is that without absolute control, one can't have free will, since events could happen that one might not accept. This is inaccurate. Free will is the ability to approve or refuse. By refuse I mean disagree with. The past can't be changed, but you can choose to disagree with it, or approve of it. A lack of choice would mean that you can't do either. So, I guess even those under oppression have free will, as long as they can still choose to accept something or refuse something.

I apologize, but I have work to do on my book, so I won't be returning to the thread.
Last edited by 7Believer on Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:34 am

7Believer wrote:Choice doesn't mean alterability.
I never claimed it did. I categorized choice under alterable phenomena, which puts it at odds with the unalterable (under which predestination is a category).

If a man is given a prediction ...
This is unintelligible. How are you "given a prediction" from a being that has simultaneously ordained your future?

I think what you are trying to state is that without absolute control, one can't have free will, since events could happen that one might not accept.
No, I believe in free will. It is predestination that I reject since it runs counter to individual volition.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby 7Believer » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:03 am

I returned to edit my post after remembering something, but since I'm here anyway, I'll add one more thing.

We can choose to except the inevitable, or refuse it. You've admitted that choice isn't the same as alterability. Not being able to alter the inevitable prevents some choices, but not all choices. As long as you can still choose to accept or refuse something, you retain free will.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Dorn » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:20 am

7Believer wrote:We can choose to except the inevitable, or refuse it. You've admitted that choice isn't the same as alterability.
You are plainly misreading it. The alterable falls into a plethora of categories, choice being one of them.

As long as you can still choose to accept or refuse something, you retain free will.
Absolutely not. Free will means that the choices you make are not determined by divine intervention, prophecies, spells, divination, palmistry, or fate.

I apologize, but I have work to do on my book, so I won't be returning to the thread.
My answer will be available if you are ever to check back in. And good luck with your book project.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:35 am

7Believer wrote:
I wasn't debating that point


Daniel24, randomness doesn't negate causes, it just doesn't reveal them. Predestination doesn't change the fact that in order to learn something, you must technically experience the actual learning itself. Perhaps I can shed some light on why bad days happen:

Consider the possibility that Satan challenged God because he thought that he could do a better job than our loving Lord. Humanity is the challenge; both God and Satan each try to influence humans to their side, in equal measure. Well, God does so in equal measure, but only in response to what Satan does, who doesn't even care about equality. Bad days are Satan's attempts at claiming your soul. He uses suffering to drive others away from God, and then sinful desire to sway them to his side. When there seems to be more bad days then good, this is because God is storing His "equal measure" influence to release it in a bigger impact. The point of all this is to prove that humans would choose God over Satan given equal influence by both. I refer to influence as information and action.


Your explanation seems overly complicated. I’m not saying it is wrong, but usually when an answer is overly complicated it tends to be wrong.

There is one thing about what you have written that doesn’t make any sense which is if we are predestined then how can we choose god over satan or satan over god? If one or the other is a persons destiny then he/she has no control over such a choice. Isn’t that a choice god makes for you?

All of the lessons to be learned in the universe are of no use without control of your own destiny otherwise how would you use anything you learn in life?

Causality must be something measurable otherwise if you use it in any other context such as in metaphysics it simply becomes an invention of the human mind. For example, it can easily be said that a bad day is simply a frame of mind and nothing external could ever cause a bad day if the person doesn’t choose to experience a bad day. Causality could not exist in this form. It is a characteristic of the mind.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:09 am

7Believer wrote:DRLHyper, a prediction can be synonymous with a guess, but a prediction from our loving Lord isn't a guess, because He actually knows it's going to happen.

Then it is not a prediction - it is an enforced mandate.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Daniel24 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:11 am

7Believer wrote:
1/3 = 3-2
0.333… = 1 This is not a correct statement

I guess I just don’t see the harm in questioning the things I’ve been told and taught by
others.


You mention how 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 3/3 = 1, similar to how {3 - 2} also equals 1. I know that 1/3 + 1/3 + 0.3 infinite doesn't also equal 1 because 0.3 infinite isn't the same as 1/3. That's the point I was making. I also know that 0.6 infinite doesn't equal 2. My equations aren't wrong. You have tried applying them to 0.3 infinite to get the same result, but obviously you won't because like I have stated, 0.3 infinite isn't an accurate equation for 1/3.

The other day our Lord taught me the difference between hoping and being naive. Hope is when you believe in something where you have more to gain then to lose. Being naive is when you believe in something where you have more to lose than to gain. I think people should apply this logic to the existence of God. When you have a good teacher, you don't need to ask questions; the teacher provides you with everything you need to know. Now, when you have a bad teacher, asking a lot of questions will only result in a lot of bad answers. It's good to seek out the truth regarding everything, but once you have the truth, you should only question it's authenticity when you are given a good reason to.

If pre-destination were true, how can we hold anyone responsable for their accions?


Basically, I think your main question is, why would God allow us to sin and then punish us, when He could have prevented us from sinning in the first place? If you believe that God is all wise and benevolent, then He must have a good reason for doing what He does, even if we don't understand what that reason is. What if God only allows bad things to happen because in the end we will be better off then we were before it happened?

Consider the possibility that all the evil in the world is caused by the devil, who only became evil because he became confused. Now, if the devil had good intentions, but became confused, then who is to blame for his confusion? As I have stated earlier, what if God only allowed the devil to become confused because He knew that the end result would justify the means? If this is true, than nobody is to blame for the initial origin of evil, since all involved are justified by their actions. If you are the type of person who would kill a man because they accidentally caused the death of another, which was not their intention, than you are a murderer.

However, the devil's intentions did indeed become evil. I believe that's what sin is, evil intention. Now, what if God existed in all living things? Then whenever we wronged somebody (acted on evil intentions), including ourselves, we were wronging our Lord. Justice is the righting of wrongs, so every time we wronged our Lord, it makes perfect sense that we should right those wrongs by accepting His determined punishment. Although God does no wrong and deserves no punishment, He allowed us to wrong Him in the first place. Then, how is this fair? Since He exists inside of us when we wrong Him, He also exists inside of us when we serve out our punishment. In this way, not only does He experience the victim's suffering, but He also experiences the offender's punishment. So, nobody can accuse Him of not being fair.

For what reason would God allow all this to happen? Well, since the devil is confused, his mistake is causing a lot of suffering. When we are targeted for the evil that he creates, somebody else is being spared of that evil. Personally, I welcome all suffering, because I believe that by being it's target, I am sparing somebody else from having to suffer. The fact that they are being spared suffering makes me happy. It's what Lord Jesus taught. Self-sacrificing, unconditional love. Now, what if everybody had that same kind of devotion? Then everytime they were chosen to bare the burden of the devil's mistakes, they would be grateful for the chance to give the gift of sparing somebody else from experiencing them.

All suffering would be turned into sacrifice, all regrets into thanks, and all cause for hate into cause for love. From then onwards, people wouldn't despair as soon as evil arrived; they would welcome it with love and self-sacrifice. The devil's real goal isn't destruction, it's corruption. He wants to turn us away from God, so he can make us his slaves. By causing suffering, he hopes to give people a reason to abandon our Loving Lord. However, love exists even in the darkest darkness. One day, we will all be grateful for having been individually chosen by our Lord to bare the burden of Satan's mistakes. We will realize that we all feel the same way, and this will make us happy. So, instead of looking back and being upset about our
bad experiences, we will be grateful; we will know the bright side of evil.

We won't begrudge each other because we were being corrupted. We won't begrudge the devil because he was simply confused, like a lost child. We also won't begrudge our loving Lord, since the end result will have justified the means; making us stronger, smarter and far better off than we ever were before. There won't be anything to complain about. Sounds like a beautiful plan to me.




The point I was making is that if you don’t have proof of something you might want to consider searching for proof otherwise you are assuming and when we make assumptions we run the risk of being wrong and sometimes looking foolish. There is no proof everything is preordained; there is also no proof there is even a god. The first question to be asked should be whether or not god is real then proving it then possibly the next question is if everything is preordained or not. It’s an assumption on top of another assumption.

The math question was only to prove that if one of your assumptions is actually wrong and therefore you could be wrong about other things. And this is a point you have willingly made for me over and over with this very same math question.

You are attempting to tell me that 0.333… is not equal to 1/3, and 0.666… is not equal to 2/3, and 0.999… is not equal to 3/3 is not equal to 1 and yet the math is sound. If you add 0.333…+0.333…+0.333… you get 0.999… which is equal to 1 because there is no number between 0.999… and 1 therefore they must be the same number. This means that 1/3+1/3+0.333… does equal 0.999… and 1. They are all decimal representations of the fraction. It is correct to write these numbers like this. Of course if you do not mean exactly 1/3 then you write 0.333 without infinite decimal places because writing 1/3 would be incorrect. I am aware of the debate with this idea and I believe the difficult part about it is wrapping your brain around the idea of infinite decimal places.

So if you believe 0.333… is not equal to 1/3 then how would you write the decimal equivalent? There has to be one.

Now moving on…it is my experience that a good teacher encourages questions so he/she can be sure everyone understands as it is impossible to teach any subject unambiguously to everyone. There must be a clear understanding of a subject or some may interpret things differently and form their own inaccurate conclusions. Questioning of all things is necessary and to discourage such a thing is suspicious at best and hiding the truth at worst.

Yes, I agree asking questions to bad teacher will often result in bad answers which is why you should get your information from more then one source. This is discouraged with religion or possibly even forbidden in many cases.

Moving on…
The rest of what you wrote is a bunch of unknowable metaphysical explaining. First of all lets move out of the realm of metaphysics…there is no proof god or the devil exist therefore a good first step would be to prove that then move onto what you think the intentions of god and the devil really are. What you have written amounts to creating an imaginary friend then explaining what this friends life goals are. It’s very imaginative, but not a shred of evidence to support such a detailed explanation. My question still remains; it doesn’t matter if there is some battle over our lives between god and the devil. If we don’t have a choice then we are not responsible for our actions because they are not our actions; they are according to you gods actions or the devils actions.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Guardian7347 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:21 pm

There is, as yet, an answer that could satisfy both camps. An answer, quite frankly, that I'm surprised hasn't already been discussed.
According to the bible, our futures are pre-ordained. Known long before we ever even set out upon our paths, if you will. This is taken to mean that our future is set, which runs contrary to the concept that our future is determined by our own actions, or free will. The fact that we can't reconcile the two only goes to demonstrate the limited understanding of mankind. Both can be in operation at the same time without a single contradiction. Just to keep the example managable, let's go simple Think of your life as a straight line from birth. As you age, that line moves to the right. Pretty standard model so far. Now, let's say at age five you come to your first real decision. You're sitting outside playing, with your mother watching out a window at you(this used to be fairly normal believe it or not). Before you is your favorite toy, and your tricylce. A choice. Back to your "life line". Make your line split in a Y, one going up and one going down to represent your choices. Let's say top is riding the tricycle. As soon as you go up this branch, you immediately have another choice, so make another Y here, top for ride your tryke on the driveway, bottom for riding your tryke out into the back yard. Again, let's go top. As you come to the end of the driveway, you come to another choice. Do you turn your tryke around before you reach the end of the driveway, or do you ride out into the street to turn around. If you choose to ride out into the street, you end up getting hit by a speeding drunk. Now, if you look at the timeline, you can clearly see where multiple choices were available, and where any one of them would have led to an outcome completely different to the one just witnessed. Is the idea of preordination to say that God doesn't know what would happen if any of those other choices were made? Or does the idea of preordination, foreknowing, mean that God knows the outcome of every decision option and how it will impact our lives all the way out to our end? How much more can God say "I know best" if he has already seen all 9 million endings of your life and what choices get you to which ones. That's what I believe. I believe God sees all the choices we will ever have to chose from and he sees all the possible outcomes from those choices. Free will is like a checkers piece moving on the board. You have all these different options on how to get to the other side, and you don't have a set destination, but not all of your choices will get you to the other end. I don't believe God knows what our choices will be, he just knows what they could be, and the consequences thereof. This is why we are instructed to seek his counsel, ie prayer on decisions. So he can give us a free hint on which way to go. Sure, it may not always seem like the preferred decision at the moment, but maybe from that missed promotion, a business entrepreneurship comes about that leads you to meet someone at a convention years down the road who becomes the love of your life. Sure, you're never as well off as you would have been with that promotion you turned down all those years ago, but you live happier with your wife and children than you ever did alone. In fact, maybe if you had taken that promotion, seven years down the road you end up jumping out the window of our very nice corner office window to your death. That's my answer. Free will is the conscious movement of man through the almost limitless options foreseen by God.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:23 pm

The problem with that theory is the same in Laplace's Demon:

If an entity knows the possible outcomes of our decisions, then nothing stops it from being capable of acknowledging beforehand which decisions we could take. Ie.: You can turn down the promotion or take it, but even before you do so, the "being" already knows which one you will take.

It is a simply step up in difficulty, honestly. A creature that can predict all/any of our possible choices is just as likely to predict which choices we will take; and this effectively negates the notion of free will.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Guardian7347 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:51 pm

DRLHyper wrote:The problem with that theory is the same in Laplace's Demon:

If an entity knows the possible outcomes of our decisions, then nothing stops it from being capable of acknowledging beforehand which decisions we could take. Ie.: You can turn down the promotion or take it, but even before you do so, the "being" already knows which one you will take.

It is a simply step up in difficulty, honestly. A creature that can predict all/any of our possible choices is just as likely to predict which choices we will take; and this effectively negates the notion of free will.
You're argument could be applied to anyone that you know well. If I know about a choice someone is going to give to one of my friends, I can accurately foretell which choice they will make at least 80% of the time, but I haven't altered their free will in the slightest. On some topics, I can accurately foretell their choices all the time. Still no impact on their free will. I see no correlation between being able to predict the likely outcome of choices and interference with free will. Bookies make a living out of predicting random choices based upon historical evidence, and yet they don't have any impact on the actual outcomes. Random variables can still affect the outcome. "Sure bets" can still fall through due to illness or injury or just having a "bad day". People do things that they "don't normally do". This is the power of free will. Of course, don't forget to factor in the free will of people around the first individual either. Their choices can influence the choices made by the first person. And of course there are other factors that come into play as well, such as drug or alcohol influence.
I will say that if you could see all the choices in your life beforehand, many of them would be no-brainers as to which you would choose. That said, the fact that it's easy to guess which way you'd go doesn't eliminate the fact that you have the free will to make that decision, nor does it change the fact that you may just have a moment where you say "fuck it" and go the other way.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:41 pm

Very well, then let me ask you a question:

What does God know about the future?
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby operatormike » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:44 am

Everything! What do you know about the future?
Who looks outside, dreams;
Dream, dream away
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Was magic in the air?
I believe, yes I believe
More I cannot say
What more can I say?---John Lennon
who looks insided, awakens! ---Carl Jung
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:06 pm

operatormike wrote:Everything! What do you know about the future?

Exactly. Then, there is no free will -- God already knows what choice(s) you will make. This goes beyond merely 'reasoning' which path you will take -- it means that things are set in stone. At least, from the perspective of God. This means also that, at least from God's perspective, there is no free will -- everyone will do what they will do.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Guardian7347 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:26 am

DRLHyper wrote:
operatormike wrote:Everything! What do you know about the future?

Exactly. Then, there is no free will -- God already knows what choice(s) you will make. This goes beyond merely 'reasoning' which path you will take -- it means that things are set in stone. At least, from the perspective of God. This means also that, at least from God's perspective, there is no free will -- everyone will do what they will do.
I disagree. I think he sees an infinite number of possible futures simultaneously, as I explained earlier. Of course, he has a "plan" for us, so he has preferences for what choices he would like to see us make. Maybe he has someone come into our lives that pushes us in a specific direction or if you're religious and you pray to him for guidance, he tells you which way he wants you to go. Either way, the bible is riddled with examples where men exercised free will in opposition to God's will.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby The Eagle » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:05 pm

Guardian7347 wrote:
DRLHyper wrote:
operatormike wrote:Everything! What do you know about the future?

Exactly. Then, there is no free will -- God already knows what choice(s) you will make. This goes beyond merely 'reasoning' which path you will take -- it means that things are set in stone. At least, from the perspective of God. This means also that, at least from God's perspective, there is no free will -- everyone will do what they will do.
I disagree. I think he sees an infinite number of possible futures simultaneously, as I explained earlier. Of course, he has a "plan" for us, so he has preferences for what choices he would like to see us make. Maybe he has someone come into our lives that pushes us in a specific direction or if you're religious and you pray to him for guidance, he tells you which way he wants you to go. Either way, the bible is riddled with examples where men exercised free will in opposition to God's will.


i think the key word for this is "know" - even if god could see all possibilities simultaneosly - then the ability to "know" which one is actually chosen can't be "known" before hand if free will actually exists.

using the infinity word allows for all possibilites to be known at any given point and allows to see possibilites in the future including the one that is chosen - but to know which one is actually chosen before it is chosen, negates free will.

seeing all possibilites you can say god does know, but you also have to say god has the same level of knowing and assurity of the one being chosen as all the other possibilities that you dont choose. i think that conflicts with "knowing" which one you will choose - i.e. knowing the future.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:28 pm

Precisely.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Guardian7347 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:47 am

The Eagle wrote:
Guardian7347 wrote:
DRLHyper wrote:
operatormike wrote:Everything! What do you know about the future?

Exactly. Then, there is no free will -- God already knows what choice(s) you will make. This goes beyond merely 'reasoning' which path you will take -- it means that things are set in stone. At least, from the perspective of God. This means also that, at least from God's perspective, there is no free will -- everyone will do what they will do.
I disagree. I think he sees an infinite number of possible futures simultaneously, as I explained earlier. Of course, he has a "plan" for us, so he has preferences for what choices he would like to see us make. Maybe he has someone come into our lives that pushes us in a specific direction or if you're religious and you pray to him for guidance, he tells you which way he wants you to go. Either way, the bible is riddled with examples where men exercised free will in opposition to God's will.


i think the key word for this is "know" - even if god could see all possibilities simultaneosly - then the ability to "know" which one is actually chosen can't be "known" before hand if free will actually exists.

using the infinity word allows for all possibilites to be known at any given point and allows to see possibilites in the future including the one that is chosen - but to know which one is actually chosen before it is chosen, negates free will.

seeing all possibilites you can say god does know, but you also have to say god has the same level of knowing and assurity of the one being chosen as all the other possibilities that you dont choose. i think that conflicts with "knowing" which one you will choose - i.e. knowing the future.
Thank you. I think we're all on roughly the same page now. This is what I've been trying to say. He knows the options, and the results of the decisions out to infinity, but he doesn't know what anyone will chose until they have chosen.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby The Eagle » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:59 am

the implications for that logic though (and this is what causes the problems for many) - it means god cant be omnipotent.

we are saying god can't do something.

so we are left with - if free will exists, then god is not omnipotent.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Guardian7347 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:44 am

The Eagle wrote:the implications for that logic though (and this is what causes the problems for many) - it means god cant be omnipotent.

we are saying god can't do something.

so we are left with - if free will exists, then god is not omnipotent.
omniscient. But I understand what you're saying. Once more I respectfully disagree though. Omniscient means all knowing. How much more "all knowing" do you need than for a God who can see a thousand different timelines for your life based upon every decision you may ever make? To me, that means he knows everything.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby The Eagle » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:08 am

Guardian7347 wrote:omniscient. But I understand what you're saying. Once more I respectfully disagree though. Omniscient means all knowing. How much more "all knowing" do you need than for a God who can see a thousand different timelines for your life based upon every decision you may ever make? To me, that means he knows everything.


hmmm i suppose you could argue that an all powerful god can allow free will and can take it away at any point. but..... while free will exists - then god cant know the choices you will actually make - if god cant do something then god not being omnipotent stands - even if it is temporary. but...... i suppose onipotent is about potential - so i stand corrected thanks. lol

how much more all knowing do i need? - well "all" knowing means means "all" things - if we make an exception from "all" then it is simply not "all" things.

remember from before if god sees the possible path from choices - but doesn't know the actual one you will choose. then this is not god knowing all things.

you see its not about all paths being seen -but knowing the path that is chosen that brings up the trouble with the definitions of omnipotent and omniscience. by saying god doesnt know which path you choose you are saying god cant do something and god doesn't know everything - you say god is not omnipotent or omnscient if free will exists,according to the definitions of omnipotent and omniscence.

you cant have it both ways and still maintain a logical argument according to the definitions fo the words.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Guardian7347 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:03 am

God's omnipotence, either pro or con, doesn't really factor into the debate either way. This discussion is about his omniscience. What he knows or doesn't, not what he does or doesn't have the ability to affect.
You're thinking too linear still. He DOES know what you'll choose. Think about being able to see the past, present and future at the same time and what do you end up with? As long as you WISH to find fault with God being omniscient or omnipotent, you'll form your logic around that permise, and I can't dislodge that. There are some things we have to just accept are outside of our full understanding, and any being able to create a universe probably falls into that category. Take care man.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Eternal Novice » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:09 am

Regarding predestination and the nature of our futures, I think It can be explained simply as a matter of cause and effect. Our actions create our futures the same way our pushing a ball causes it to move forward. If it didn't work that way then there'd be no order in the world, and the very fabric of the universe would fall apart. When things happen, they happen because people's actions have caused them to happen. What this means is that nothing is set in stone. When we "predict the future", we are really only pointing out the most likely scenario. For example, lets presume that Person A is destined to become a mass murderer. We could make that prediction only with detailed knowledge of every aspect of his life; including but not limited to his character, his tendencies to form certain thought patterns, his interactions with people, his significant personal relationships or lack of them, his skills and abilities, the nature of his environment, and finally the actual events that connect all these things together. However, at the time of our prediction, none of these "events" would have actually happened. Any change or deviation in the complicated sequence of motivations and events required to turn Person A into a mass murderer could change that future. And that's the thing... Deviations can and do happen. Here's an example: If God told you that you were destined to eat scrambeled eggs for breakfast tomorrow, having that knowledge would give you a certain level of power and control. Maybe you would have had scrambled eggs. But now, simply because you know that, you decide to have cereal. There is no cosmic force preventing you from doing this. The cereal does not transform in your bowl to scrambled eggs as you eat it. You are not struck dead. You have changed the future. It's really that simple. And, the thing is, we don't need god to tell us that stuff. Our futures are not things we can't know. All we have to do is be willing to look ahead at the logical consequences of our actions. That gives us the ability to react to those consequences, the power to change our futures to our advantage. The future is only set in stone as much as people's actions never deviate from predicted patterns.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:48 am

Guardian7347 wrote:He DOES know what you'll choose.

Then, there is no free will.

Free will means that nothing is set is set in stone. But if someone, sometime, knows what that choices will be, then it goes beyond mere 'likely scenario' or 'knowing all the possible choices'... It means that you will undoubtly take a certain choice.

There is no way around that.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Eternal Novice » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:49 am

I don't think what God knows really matters. If we say that God knows what we will do, all that means is that God knows what we will do. It's reactionary. His knowledge of us is entirely dependent on us, and we change. We are always the ones with power over our decisions, so even if the future is set in stone, we are the ones who decide what's written therein. We're not characters in a movie God's already seen, nor are we puppets who can only move at his whim. He didn't create us that way. The universe is dynamic; eternal. So even though god might know how things will go, even he can't know how they'll end.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby The Eagle » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:33 am

Guardian7347 wrote:God's omnipotence, either pro or con, doesn't really factor into the debate either way. This discussion is about his omniscience. What he knows or doesn't, not what he does or doesn't have the ability to affect.
You're thinking too linear still. He DOES know what you'll choose. Think about being able to see the past, present and future at the same time and what do you end up with? As long as you WISH to find fault with God being omniscient or omnipotent, you'll form your logic around that permise, and I can't dislodge that. There are some things we have to just accept are outside of our full understanding, and any being able to create a universe probably falls into that category. Take care man.


and as long as you wish for god to be omnipotent and omiscient you have to accept the sheer illogical and impossible as logical and possible.

ofcourse they come into it. as soon as omnipotence and omniscience is put in doubt you have gone from this:

Guardian7347 wrote:He knows the options, and the results of the decisions out to infinity, but he doesn't know what anyone will chose until they have chosen.


to:

Guardian7347 wrote:He DOES know what you'll choose.


the only logical option - if god knows what you choose before you have chosen it - then free will doesnt exist even if we have the illusion of it. if free will exists - then the choices have not been made and god cant know which one you will choose. -
god cant do something logically - then his omnopotence is called into question - god doesnt know something his omniscience is put in question. the concept of free will puts both in doubt.

its purely the wish for god to be all knowing and can do anything that people cling on to illogical standpoints. dont get me wrong peope can believe what they want - but to try and argue it as logical doesnt hold up.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby Guardian7347 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:45 am

The Eagle wrote:
Guardian7347 wrote:God's omnipotence, either pro or con, doesn't really factor into the debate either way. This discussion is about his omniscience. What he knows or doesn't, not what he does or doesn't have the ability to affect.
You're thinking too linear still. He DOES know what you'll choose. Think about being able to see the past, present and future at the same time and what do you end up with? As long as you WISH to find fault with God being omniscient or omnipotent, you'll form your logic around that permise, and I can't dislodge that. There are some things we have to just accept are outside of our full understanding, and any being able to create a universe probably falls into that category. Take care man.


and as long as you wish for god to be omnipotent and omiscient you have to accept the sheer illogical and impossible as logical and possible.

ofcourse they come into it. as soon as omnipotence and omniscience is put in doubt you have gone from this:

Guardian7347 wrote:He knows the options, and the results of the decisions out to infinity, but he doesn't know what anyone will chose until they have chosen.


to:

Guardian7347 wrote:He DOES know what you'll choose.
the only logical option - if god knows what you choose before you have chosen it - then free will doesnt exist even if we have the illusion of it. if free will exists - then the choices have not been made and god cant know which one you will choose. -
god cant do something logically - then his omnopotence is called into question - god doesnt know something his omniscience is put in question. the concept of free will puts both in doubt.

its purely the wish for god to be all knowing and can do anything that people cling on to illogical standpoints. dont get me wrong peope can believe what they want - but to try and argue it as logical doesnt hold up.
Again, omnipotence doesn't factor here. When discussing "knowing'' we are only discussing omniscience.
I know it's hard to understand, but there isn't anything about God that's either illogical or impossible when you consider the universe as a whole. Ardent "big bang" theorists will eventually concede that at some point, there was something that had to start the whole process off. Something to create the original mass. Something God-like. If God then exists, which science indicates he may, and he has the power to create matter out of nothing(which IS technically possible, with a high enough expenditure of energy), then it stands to reason he may well be beyond our understanding, and therefore seem illogical. From everything I can ascetain, God is a being of pure energy, and energy affects all things, is tied to all things. It is the essence and basis of life. Through energy all things happen. Through God, all things are possible. Religion shouldn't stand seperate from science, but one should be used to validate the other, and the other should be used to show the glory of God. The early church just had some misconceptions about the world, and instead of accepting what science showed and seeing how that showed an even greater God than they knew before, they were afraid of losing butts in pews, and declared science heresay. This is the cause for the schism between science and religion, and now it's a stupid battle between the two that needn't be. I prefer to see what science proves and then look at the bible and see what new things can be learned with the new knowledge, see how it affects previously held beliefs. Try to be more open-minded. You may learn more.
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Re: So everything that will happen is already preordained?

Postby DRLHyper » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:10 am

Guardian7347 wrote:Again, omnipotence doesn't factor here. When discussing "knowing'' we are only discussing omniscience.

Omni = All.
Potence = Powerful.
Science = Knowledge.

Therefore:

Omnipotence = All powerful.
Omniscience = All knowing.

You can not have omnipotence without omniscience. It would not work in practice, because you would lack the ability to predict the future, ergo, you are not 'all powerful'. That also enters the field of omniscience. It does not means it is restricted to it.
Guardian7347 wrote:I know it's hard to understand, but there isn't anything about God that's either illogical or impossible when you consider the universe as a whole.

There is seemingly nothing illogical about National Socialism (Nazism) when you consider the reasons and intentions of Hitler (ie: the 'grand plan'). However, common sense tells us otherwise.
Guardian7347 wrote:Ardent "big bang" theorists will eventually concede that at some point, there was something that had to start the whole process off. Something to create the original mass. Something God-like.

The Big Bang, as-is today, is a flawed theory which frankly only Atheists dare defend to the bitter end with zeal. It kind of defeats the point, to concede to the idea that something god-like had to partake in the creation of the universe when you are an ardent believe in the opposite.
Guardian7347 wrote:If God then exists, which science indicates he may,

Science also points at the Big Bang theory (complete with it's flaws) being a possibility. Upon closer examination, we understand that the lack of empirical evidence makes impossible to assert it as truth. Granted, there are still the theorical flaws, but even if you could look past them there is nothing to validate the theory.
Guardian7347 wrote:and he has the power to create matter out of nothing(which IS technically possible, with a high enough expenditure of energy), then it stands to reason he may well be beyond our understanding, and therefore seem illogical.

It does not "seem" illogical. It is illogical.

The first law of logic: ex nihilo nihil fit: you can't get something from nothing.
Guardian7347 wrote:From everything I can ascetain, God is a being of pure energy, and energy affects all things, is tied to all things. It is the essence and basis of life. Through energy all things happen. Through God, all things are possible.

True. All elements in the natural world have only one common denominator -- energy.

That however does not means that anything can turn directly into energy or vice versa.
Guardian7347 wrote:Religion shouldn't stand seperate from science, but one should be used to validate the other, and the other should be used to show the glory of God. The early church just had some misconceptions about the world, and instead of accepting what science showed and seeing how that showed an even greater God than they knew before, they were afraid of losing butts in pews, and declared science heresay. This is the cause for the schism between science and religion, and now it's a stupid battle between the two that needn't be.

Exept, while they are not inherently oppossites, they are not inherently compatible, either.

Religion is about the organizational framework for the study of theological-philosophical questions, while science is about the observation of the natural world (this includes the effects of man upon it, as well). It is not the duty of a theologician to tell a scientist how to study a certain compound, or animal species, or how to conduct an observation; likewise, the scientist can not commit to any 'ultimate' questions. He can not answer those questions and still be considered a scientist.
Guardian7347 wrote:I prefer to see what science proves and then look at the bible and see what new things can be learned with the new knowledge, see how it affects previously held beliefs. Try to be more open-minded. You may learn more.

I will tell you what I tell New Agers: Being open minded may be a good thing. But if you indulge in such a thing in excess, your brains can easily fall out.
"Spirituality" is a code word of sorts: "I have a confession to make — I believe in God! I'm so sorry!" - "Your 'science' cannot explain my transcendental experiences!" - "I'm a quack. Give me all your money."
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